ATR is a Failure

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by barbell, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. Bungnoid

    Bungnoid Original Member

    Yes. Perhaps as the government amasses more scans of our penises, vaginas, and breasts into their database, they can refine the ATR algorithm to be more discriminating and effective. Eventually, maybe they'll have scans of all of the world's genitals on file, and will have a correspondingly high ATR success rate.
    Lisa Simeone and Cartoon Peril like this.
  2. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Well, I guess I could be wrong. I thought flunking the Chertoffomizer meant the full dope grope even with ATR. If it doesn't, then why did they proceed differently with the non-ATR machines?
  3. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    In the example of the bra clasp in the center of the back, if it was identified as an anomaly, the entire back region would have to be patted down, not the entire body. The distinct advantage ATR has over the current process is that you would truly have privacy. No one would view your AIT image. The disadvantage is that because no one is looking at your AIT image, there may be more pat-downs because no one is there to distinguish between recognizable items that don't need to be patted down and anomalies that require further resolution.
  4. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    So long as one accepts that (a) the walk through metal detector, (b) the hand held metal detector, and (c) visual inspection of the passenger are insufficient measures, yes.
  5. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    I don't believe the Chertoffomizer accepts ATR yet. However, if failing backscatter and those MMWs that don't yet have ATR, means a full body grope, then it doesn't make much sense, does it? Then again, this is the TSA we are talking about.
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  6. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Ah, I was using "Chertoffomizer" to refer to the nude scopes in general, whereas former People's Commissar Chertoff was only a pimp for the x-ray variety, which I agree don't have the ATR. I should have used the correct term for all of the pervomatics, which of course would be "Junkatron."

    We are assured via blog post on this site now that flunking ATR does not mean a full-body grope, just a partial body grope. So if the machine alarms on your eyeglasses, they just feel your face to make sure you aren't Hannibal Lector.
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  7. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    Ah, ha - understood. Thanks for the clarification.

    I am still shaking my head over barbell's report of the gentleman having his face patted down...........does anyone at TSA have a clue as to how ridiculous that looked?
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  8. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Maybe they thought his head was fake and was actually a bomb.
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  9. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Well, there will always be some, ah, exceptional people. Let's hope they don't cause the machine to start smoking while screaming out "DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE!"
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  10. JoeBas

    JoeBas Original Member

    Get ready for a surpriiiiiiseeeee!!!!!! :rolleyes:
  11. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    Well, believe it or not, I happen to believe that the hand-wands should be brought back and used for "low risk" passengers as opposed to "high risk." But that's just me. ;)
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  12. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    I do believe it. Your bosses however either sold their souls to Chertoff or they never had any, and the dope grope became the regime.
  13. N965VJ

    N965VJ Original Member

    I believe it, too. And Bart is not the first TSA employee I've heard mention they wish they were in use on a regular basis. What was the thinking in pulling them back?
    Cartoon Peril likes this.
  14. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Bart for president! I was returning from a rare business trip (rare since black October), with some folks who had replacement knees, at an airport with no scanners. HHMD would have been sufficient to locate the beep issue for these folks, but they got the full monty instead. I think its just an excuse to do this kind of search, personally. Anyway, I observed several people over the hour I was parked nearby getting the full search, for whatever reason, and one lady who alarmed the ETD and had her carryon taken apart. Noticed that the experienced clerk did the full monty a lot like the old patdown, and indeed it did seem to be like GSOLTSO says, not a whole lot different. Very light with the hands, not the obscene rubbing crap, except closer to the family jewels on the front pubic area and a bit higher on the inside legs, didn't get close to the resistance. There was a young guy also, relatively inexperienced, and he was awful, rubbing his hands hard over the backs, the chest, the butts, and he really racked upwards into the resistance on the guys he felt up. Should have been laid out, IMO. I don't see why creeps like that are allowed anywhere near a human being. pax = one large guy in cargo pants, one old geezer in a business suit (ptravel?) two middle aged guys with receding hairlines looking not terribly thrilled. The female clerk was careful to stay away from the crotch areas of the ladies she searched (three ladies in their 70's in slacks, white haired, one middle aged in a skirt) did NOT caress the butts-very light in that area, cursory around breasts, did not do hair exams (neither the male clerks),
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  15. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    No freakin' clue. They are used at courthouses and other secure locations all the time.
  16. JoeBas

    JoeBas Original Member

    Two terrorists sitting around a cave smoking a hookah.

    Terrorist 1: Hey, man... let's have some fun...
    Terrorist 2: Yeah... okay, but... how?...
    Terrorist 1: *snickering* Watch this... logs onto gmail id "imaterrorist123", sends an email "ilovejihad222" Text? "Finally, we've developed an explosive which is UNDETECTABLE by metal detectors! When the time is right... we will strike!!!!" Hits Send.
    Terrorist 2: But... man... we've just been sitting here smoking. We don't have that (expletive deleted).
    Terrorist 1: We don't have to, we just have to have them think we do.
    Terrorist 2: ... ... ... ... DUDE!!!!
    Lisa Simeone, jtodd, N965VJ and 3 others like this.
  17. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    It's about exerting power. That's it.
  18. KrazyKat

    KrazyKat Original Member

    What? And fear profit a man nothing?
  19. gojirasan

    gojirasan Original Member

    I don't think those 3 examples show that ATR is useless. Before going through the NoS take off your glasses and put them in your carry-on. If you are wearing a bra, take it off until you get through the scanner. Don't wear clothing with pleats or any multi-layer clothing at all. Wear some kind of skin-tight spandex suit or maybe coveralls underneath your clothes and remove the rest of your clothes and put them in a tray on the xray belt. No jewelry or watches either. Only that would be a fair test. If the machine is still alarming when you are wearing nothing but a thin spandex layer then I would agree that ATR is a failure. I don't see how ATR is a bad thing. It makes the machine itself much less invasive. Yes, there will be more false positives, but at least in that case you have some chance of getting a less invasive patdown.

    For me the ATR machines would give me more options. I don't have to not fly that day if selected for the NoS. I can go through the scanner in my orange jumpsuit. If I am still selected for a patdown I would ask specifically where they want to touch me. If they won't answer me or if I find the area they want to touch too invasive I can just walk away at that time. If they get anywhere near my crotch at any point I would push their arm away or just grab their hands and then walk out of the checkpoint and out of the airport.

    Another huge benefit when/if all NoS machines are converted to ATR is that it may significantly reduce the perv population in the TSA. It wouldn't surprise me if 80% or more of TSOs are only working there because of the titillation factor. It must be a huge draw. They get to watch porn half their shift and get to third base with lots of 13 year old boys/girls the rest of the time. That is a total, irresistible dream job for certain folks. It's true that with the ATR they still get to feel up hundreds of people a day and ATR may even increase those numbers, but some people are more visually oriented. I think eliminating the erotic imagery will certainly help to reduce the perv population. And eliminating the private wank booth is another huge benefit. Those things are creepy.
  20. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    gojirasan, Hilarious! Love it!!

    Actually, maybe we could market some kind of special outfit, an avant-molestation cloak or jumpsuit, that would be simultaneously protective and make a political statement. I don't mean with words printed on it necessarily, just by its design. That would be a riot.

    I hate to say it, but back when I thought I had to take a flight in December 2010 (turned out I didn't), I had an entire protective clothing scheme worked out involving a nylon bodysuit over my underwear but under a body briefer, then my normal clothes -- trying to put as many layers between me and the groping goons as possible. It's ridiculous (and sad and telling) that I had to even think this way.

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