Democratic Underground: TSA Outrage - GOP Fodder for the Feeble Minded

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Mike, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    Is this what passes for "intelligence" at the Democratic Underground?

    Democratic Underground: TSA Outrage - GOP Fodder for the Feeble Minded

    I have one word for all you people dumb enough to be offended by the TSA for violating your freedoms – Greyhound.

    I was amused to see a blog entry on the site of Breitbart dingle-berry Dana Loesch about the outrage of the TSA. How dare these people invade your freedoms in the name of public safety. This is all the sweeter given Dana’s claim to conservative fame is that the “9-11 attacks were her inspiration to become a conservative”. Despite the fact that if we had the security in place then that we have now, perhaps 9-11 would never have happened. Perhaps she worships the GOP’s national security incompetence that allowed such a tragedy to happen on their watch after repeated ignored warnings. It is hard to say. Is it even worth trying to find reason in the logic of another college dropout, conservative mouthpiece – probably not.

    For more - check out the post ---> http://wp.me/p1asum-yO

    Speaking of dingle-berries, this guy needs to look in the mirror, assuming he survives -- the responders are having him for lunch. :D
     
  2. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    The responders at DU, yes, but the Wordpress site only had 3 comments, all supporting the article. I left one of my own trying to give perspective, but could use some backup.

    It's currently awaiting moderation. Reposting here for post security:

     
    LeeAnne likes this.
  3. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    I'll be damned, it made it through.

    Posted another reply to vjoseph, who seems a bit more reasonable than the other commenters.

     
    LeeAnne likes this.
  4. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    I am SO tired of people painting those who are against the TSA's abuses as "conservatives", or Republicans or Tea Partiers or whatever.

    I'm a died-in-the-wool liberal, and proud of it. I believe that society has an imperative to help the less-fortunate. I believe that healthcare is a right, not a privilege, and that no American should have to die of a treatable disease because they can't afford a doctor. I believe that two adults in love should be able to get married and receive the over 1000 legal and financial benefits that all other married couples receive, regardless of their gender. I believe that no American should be forced to live under the tenets of a religion to which he does not believe or subscribe, and that religion needs to stay the (expletive deleted) out of government. I believe that the wealthy should not be able to pay lower tax rates than the poor/middle class. I believe that mankind is exerting dangerous negative impacts on our environment, and we need to work harder to stop and even reverse these impacts.

    AND I believe that no American should be forced into allowing strangers to touch their genitals, manhandle their medical devices, or paw their children in order to exercise their right to travel about the country.

    HOW are these two sets of beliefs mutually exclusive??

    (FYI - not looking to get into a political debate...these are my core beliefs and are not up for discussion. I'm just trying to point out that TSA abuse is a NON-PARTISAN ISSUE, and I'm really tired of it being viewed as something that only resonates with conservatives.)
     
  5. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    I agree, and it's mostly the politically-devout who draw this imaginary distinction and prop up this false dichotomy. According to them, I can't be a true conservative because I favor marriage equality and full no-questions-asked abortion rights, and I can't be a true liberal because I value 2nd-amendment gun ownership rights as well as wanting government to be no larger than it must be (for purposes of limiting its ability to intrude into people's private lives).

    Apparently people can't just value maximizing the rights and freedoms of individual human beings. I can't even claim libertarianism as a philosophy anymore because it's been co-opted by free-market fetishists who think private business enterprise is the solution to everything. One needs only look to DRM, SOPA, ACTA, and "Six-Strikes" to see that businesses can screw the individual every bit as hard as governments can.

    What tickles me is that these same people, not liberal independent thinkers but rather the members of the Cult of Liberalism (compare/contrast with conservative independent thinkers and members of the Cult of Conservatism), would've railed against TSA in the Bush years but see Obama as "their guy" and will defend him to the death.

    I agree with a lot of things Obama's done. I truly believe Obamacare, despite whatever implementation faults it might have (which I genuinely don't know much about, and so will withhold judgment), is a well-meaning initiative; I love the elimination of DADT; I love that, as an atheist, I don't have to worry that he views me as a second-class citizen; and I love that he's defending Planned Parenthood. Like any other president, he's right about some things and wrong about other things. Unfortunately, in his case, when he's wrong he's VERY wrong. NDAA, drones, assassinations, and our blue-gloved buddies at the airport all come to mind. Of course, the same could be said for Dubya in terms of starting the Iraq war, creating TSA/DHS, and, well...pick any president and you can generate a list a mile long.

    The Cultists find it easy and/or fun to say "Liberals want to grope Grandma!" and "Conservatives want another 9/11!" and ignore nuance. As I said in the comment, I love that TUG brings some wildly different perspectives together under a common goal. We see the shades of grey (not sure if there are 50 of them or not) whereas people who just want to wear the "R" or "D" badges see black and white. "Us" = good, "Them" = bad.

    And rather than pointing fingers at partisan strawmen, we point them directly at Pistole's leprous visage and say "We're coming for you next, a$$h0le!"

    On an unrelated note, it's good to see you posting more here these days. Missed ya'.
     
  6. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    By the way, I posted the above as a comment on the article at The Centrist, and it made it through moderation. I also posted a response to this:

    My response:

    I’m not “too special for a”pat-down”. But I AM too special too allow uneducated, ill-trained, power-tripping government workers to touch my genitals without my consent, just so I can make use of the plane ticket which I legally purchased. And so are you.

    Perhaps you are perfectly fine with allowing strangers to paw your sex organs. If so, good for you. I am NOT.

    And I deserve to fly just as much as you do. Go ahead, argue with that.

    By the way, I’m a liberal.

    This one did not make it past moderation.

    I also posted in response to this:

    My response:

    If you think that uneducated, ill-trained goons wearing blue shirts and fake badges pawing at our genitals is in any way “ensuring the safety of passengers”, then YOU go (expletive deleted) yourself. Meanwhile, I will exercise my right to fly, while maintaining the FREEDOM to decide who touches my vagina and labia. TSA goons are not among the people I choose.

    This one didn't make it past moderation either. I guess it's okay for people they agree with to drop F-bombs, but not me. Whatever.
     
  7. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The problem is more what passes for "intelligence" at a couple of the major websites. Daily KOS has actually matured quite a bit over the last 8 years, Democratic Underground not so much.
     
  8. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    LOL I guess it took seeing the TSA abuse two defenseless disabled children with my very own eyes to jolt me out of my inertia. ;)

    As for everything else you wrote above, it's scary how much I agree with you...on ALL of it (including your political views). But we can talk about that on Facebook. In here I only ever mention my political views to make the point that being a "TSA Dissident" (to use Christopher Elliott's term) is something that brings people on opposite ends of the political spectrum together. Well, at least it does for people who have some basic critical-thinking skills and the ability to avoid blindly following partisan rhetoric, anyway!
     
  9. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Not debating but should the poor pay the same percentage of tax as anyone else?

    I personally like a flat tax plan but do not favor exemptions for anyone.
     
  10. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    Ugh honestly I don't want to get into any actual politics here. I was probably artless in the way I stated that one. The key message I was trying to convey is that IMO the wealthy should have to pay their "fair share" just like the non-wealthy. But there are a lot of nuances in that issue, and my personal opinion on it probably doesn't align exactly with the classic liberal line anyway.

    How's that for being evasive? :cool:
     
  11. RB

    RB Founding Member

    There seems to be a belief in some circles that the more wealthy should pay the way for the less wealthy. Yet I see people who I have good reason to believe are on various forms of public assistance but they have nice autos, the latest cell phones, big screen tv's and such but seem unable to afford little unimportant things like health insurance. I've have been told that jobs like working fast food doesn't pay as much as welfare so these people stay unemployed. I have been told this by people in these circumstances.

    I don't support paying taxes for these folks or anything else for that matter, let them get off their behinds and work like I do for the things I have or want. I started working as a newspaper boy when I was about 12 or 13. After that I work in grocery stores, farms, washed dishes, cut grass, hauled hay, built fence and anything else I could do to make a bit of money and finally entered the military when I had just turned 17. I have never drawn a penny from social services, unemployment or any other form of charity.

    For the truly unable, ill, severely handicapped and other people in such circumstances I am willing and able to lend a hand. To the people who refuse to do what is needed to better themselves, not one fricken penny!

    Not a political statement just RB's view on life and death. Work and eat, don't work and die.
     
    Monica47 likes this.
  12. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    Okay well now I feel goaded into saying this:

    Everything you just wrote here is exactly what every conservative says whenever anyone says "the wealthy should pay their fair share in taxes." Here's the problem: I never said that these taxes should be used to pay for luxuries for people who don't work. I never said that money should be taken from those who work and handed on a silver platter to lazy bums who sit at home, dine on food stamps, and pay their rent with welfare. I never said that "one fricken penny" should be given to "people who refuse to do what is needed to better themselves".

    But if you went to public school...if you ever called the cops...if you ever relied on the fire department to keep your community safe...if you ever drove on an interstate highway...if you ever visited and enjoyed a national park...if you or a family member ever used medicare to pay for medical needs...if you ever went to the DMV...guess what? You have made use of the taxes paid for by American citizens. Taxes pay for the infrastructure of our nation. We ALL get the benefit of that. So why shouldn't the wealthy pay their fair share? Why should the heaviest tax burden be on the middle/lower classes?

    WHY do people assume that those of us who feel that we should all pay our fair share in taxes, want that tax money to go to fund irresponsibility and laziness?? Where does anyone get the idea that THAT's what we think taxes should be used for?

    I got my first job the day after I turned 16, and I haven't stopped working since, except for a few years when my children were very young...and even then I did some freelance work to help with the household bills. I am just as much a proponent of personal responsibility as any conservative. But I also realize that without taxes, we wouldn't HAVE the wonderful infrastructure that we all enjoy and make use of pretty much every day. And I'm quite willing to pay my fair share. Keep in mind that at this point I AM the 1% (or damn near close to it). And I WANT to pay my fair share, and am proud to do so. I love my country, and I'm happy to contribute my part to the things that make us great.

    By the way, unemployment is not charity. Many years ago, my husband drew unemployment for several months. back when I was staying home with the kids and he got laid off. It allowed us to pay the mortgage and keep our home until he could get another job. We've been paying into unemployement for our entire work lives. You'd better believe that we tapped into it when we needed it. We EARNED it. It wasn't charity. And it saved us from ruin when we needed it...exactly the way it's supposed to.

    There, now I talked politics. Can we get back to talking about the TSA?
     
    Monica47 likes this.
  13. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Good point about unemployment, we have our payrolls taxed to help cover that. But isn't the same true for DMV, fire departments, police, public schools, our highways, and even the national parks? I know I am taxed both locally, by the state, and by the feds each and every year.

    If a person doesn't feel they are paying their fair share in taxes I know of no restrictions keeping them from writing an additional check payable to any taxing authority.
     
  14. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    1. My point was, why whenever a "liberal" mentions the wealthy paying their fair share, do "conservatives" immediately start talking about welfare scofflaws and lazy loafers sucking off the government? What makes them think liberals like this any more than they do? Why do they seem to conveniently forget all the OTHER things taxes are used for? What is DONE with taxes is an entirely different discussion, and one that I'll bet, if it really came down to an honest discussion, we'd be closer than you think. You don't want our nation's infrastructure to disappear or deteriorate any more than I do. You too believe that we should care for "the truly unable, ill, severely handicapped and other people in such circumstances" (you said so yourself). So please stop throwing welfare scofflaws in our face any time we mention taxes. I don't like 'em either.

    2. Most wealthy people will do anything they can to avoid paying taxes, including making use of every loophole they can find. My little family writing a bigger check is not going to make much difference. The tax laws need to be changed so that wealthy people can't worm their way out of paying their fair share. But I can assure you that we do not search for every little deduction. We could easily pay less taxes if we wanted to. We do what we feel is morally right, as proud Americans willing to contribute towards the greatness of our nation.

    I see nothing unreasonable or debatable in my opinion about taxes as stated. But if you want to keep debating, go ahead. I'm done.
     
  15. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Oh, you mean the 45-48% of American who pay no income taxes whatsoever? (As soon as there is a majority of voters who benefit from taxation yet pay no taxes, watch out) The top 5% pay most of the income taxes in the US. They've largely paid for all those things you list. They've paid "their fair share" as well as yours and mine.

    Can I ask y'all to do some math? Divide the $2.3 trillion we spend yearly on social programs by the 46 million people the government says are in poverty and see what number comes out per person...

    Nobody has the right to take by force what belongs to one person and give it to another person. That's theft. And it's done on a grand scale everywhere in this country. But it ain't the poor that gets the proceeds of the theft. It's taken from one set of people, including the middle class, and it's given to other people living a middle class lifestyle and wealthy people who have bought the proper influence.
     
  16. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    See...this is why I'm sorry I even mentioned my political beliefs in here at all. I should have known this would happen.

    I was NOT trying to start a political debate. I was just trying to point out that one can hold "liberal" political views, and still be against the TSA. THAT'S ALL.

    My final words on this: my personal political views are valid and reasonable, and are based on truth and facts (at least those available to me). I have done my homework - I do not come to my viewpoints by watching partisan-leaning news shows or nodding my head like a bobblehead to whatever soundbite is spewed by whatever politician or talking head I happen to be watching from my side of the political fence, or by whatever photoshopped image is making the rounds on Facebook. I read and listen to everything I can find on the issues of importance to me, including opinions espousing positions different from mine, and sometimes my opinion is even swayed by them. I try to ensure that my political views are objective, I keep an open mind, and I do not follow a party line. My views (like Celtic Whisper's) can't even be defined by any party, as they are all over the map. There are some things that I am willing to be swayed on (especially issues about the economy - I'm definitely not an expert in economics, I hated those classes in school!), and some on which I am unwavering (like gay civil rights - sorry but there is NO valid reason to deny an entire segment of the population the same family and marital rights as everyone else...NONE, and I don't give a damn what the Bible says...or the Koran, or the Torah, or Scientology scriptures for that matter, I don't want anything to do with any of 'em).

    But I will not debate politics in here any longer, and I'm sorry I brought them up at all. This place has an important mission, one that is shared by people from all sides of the political sphere. We should be proud that we can come together and work towards a common goal, in spite of our wildly differing political views.

    And to quote Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that."
     
    CelticWhisper likes this.
  17. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Since you feel your position is not debatable, even though I was not debating, I see little point in continuing the discussion also. But, the fact of the matter is that most taxes collected by government are already from the top wage earners.

    I have to ask how much of your families income should be forfeited in the name of taxes? 30%, 40%, 50%? I am truly curious what number you feel is the right amount.

    I don't know how others feel but I think I pay enough in taxes already. State sales tax, gas tax, property tax, school district taxes, hospital district tax, not to mention how taxes in the way of fees have been added to many other things, like air travel security fees, toll roads, vehicles registration fees and other such things. Then we have sin taxes on booze and tobacco. I consume almost no booze and no tobacco so those don't impact me but they do impact the poorest of taxpayers. I'm sure there are several other taxes I'm forgetting but when all is said and done I suspect few people understand exactly how much of their total income goes to some form of tax.

    The fact remains that higher earners pay the most taxes as evidence from this graphic. What is out of control is government spending.

    http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

    Who Pays Income Taxes and How Much?
    Tax Year 2009


    Percentiles Ranked by AGI
    AGI Threshold on Percentiles
    Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid
    Top 1%
    $343,927
    36.73
    Top 5%
    $154,643
    58.66
    Top 10%
    $112,124
    70.47
    Top 25%
    $66,193
    87.30
    Top 50%
    $32,396
    97.75
    Bottom 50%
    <$32,396
    2.25
     
  18. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    Eugh...I get the impression I somehow started this by bringing up partisan warfare in my article comment.

    I'm with LeeAnne - people are perfectly entitled to their own views on how a nation should be run with regard to taxation and whatever else, but I'd rather focus on our likenesses under the banner of fighting TSA abuse (I say "abuse" because it's easier to type than "every last goddamn thing anyone employed by TSA has ever done on the job") and not be divided by side matters.

    On a brighter note, this is also what I was talking about when I said TUG brings people together across monumental ideological divides. I get the impression that many of us are strange bedfellows, but here we are nonetheless.

    And now, time for lunch.
     
    LeeAnne likes this.
  19. LeeAnne

    LeeAnne Original Member

    Just to clarify: I didn't say my positions are "not debatable". They are, in fact, VERY debatable, and I debate them all the time. Sometimes I even change my position, especially when I've learned something new that calls my previously held beliefs into question. (I'd be curious to find out how many people with strong political views would ever allow that to happen? Not many I bet - there's a phenomenon that has been well documented, in which once someone has stated a political viewpoint, even if it's based on total lies and provable falsehoods, no amount of throwing facts in their face will make them change it...case in point: "death panels"...but I digress...)

    I'm just choosing not to debate them in here. Because I think we have a higher purpose. :D
     
  20. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Sorry, I must have misunderstood this comment:

    I'm not trying to question your beliefs or push a political agenda. In fact I don't think during this discussion that I have mentioned where I stand on the political spectrum. I have tried to better understand your position with what I thought were reasonable questions and statments of my beliefs.

    I really am curious as to how much you think we should pay in taxes.
     

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