DHS Preparing for War against Americans?

Discussion in 'What's On Your Mind?' started by RB, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The big thing that doesn't make sense here for a purported war the American people is all the .40 ammo. It's a short-range handgun cartridge for relatively closeup work. If there were really such a "war", citizens with normal hunting rifles would pick them off before they were close enough to use their handguns effectively. On top of that, DHS law enforcement agencies don't have the manpower to take on 315 million people. I doubt DHS itself has enough LEO's to manage an occupation of Wyoming (especially given that the locals probably have more guns & ammo than DHS).

    At the height of the last major round of "they're going to seize our guns" paranoia (early Clinton years), people did surveys of military personnel and concluded that they would not be turned against us. We currently have about 2.3M in the service (1.45M active duty, 0.85M) reserve, and many are in specialties not useful for domestic suppression, e.g. Air Force missile/bomber/fighter crews & support squadrons and most naval units. At worst they would be outnumbered 130:1, and given that most military won't turn on Americans or wouldn't be useful for that purpose, the ratio will be a lot higher.

    Another thing to factor in here is that if Washington tries to attack its own, there's good chance that many governors will intervene and not allow national guard units to be federalized. Local law enforcement will probably take their cues from the state level.

    My own personal theory is that DHS is wasting money while have it. Big budget cuts are looming, and as things are presently structured there are at least three groups of Federal law enforcement (FBI, border patrol, park rangers) that will be seeing serious staff reductions. What we see here is the last big gasp of a corrupt, inept bureaucracy.

    Has anyone though to ask Suzie what she's missing out on by being on ICE? Law enforcement officers run by a bimbo who makes drunken wisecracks about oral sex are going to take over America?

    Just color me skeptical, very skeptical!
  2. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Agree with Mike. A more important number than the ammo is the number of hands available to shoot. Still, coupled with the legal prep to bypass Posse Comitatis and the training of troops for a domestic role, the ammo purchases show an uneasy federal bureaucracy.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  3. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    (1) This ammo makes a student of history decidedly uncomfortable:


    (2) This is where I pin my biggest hope, should citizens truly come under Federal attack. I hope our state governments would come through for us, but I'm by no means confident they would.

    (3) I've been part of federal "spend it while we've got it" binges of insane excess in the past. This is likely.

    (4) DHS does seem to be led by a gang of total azz-clowns. It's really, really hard to take the seriously. What worries me about their obvious perversity and unprofessionalism is that there are sadistic aspects to their unruly behaviors. If they were simply perverted and incompetent I'd only be annoyed, but because they enjoy harming others, I'm scared.

    I take all the conspiracy theories with a heavy sprinkle of salt. I don't know when how or why our government "think tanks" have become just as loony as our paranoid loners hanging out in their mothers' basements. When I read what the crazies are doing and writing, it's the ones in our federal government who scare me the most. The ones in their mothers' basements will eventually keel over dead from excessive consumption of twinkies, beer and Ramen Noodle bowls. They're nuts, but they only harm themselves. The nut-jobs running wild with our tax dollars scare me. They have real power.

    I wish I thought we were likely to get a decent federal executive branch in 2013. I don't see much to hope for from Obomney or Obomney.
    nachtnebel likes this.
  4. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Why not just ask these agencies why they need these amounts of ammo?

    There is a reason for the buying, although I don't know what it is. I suspect a poorly conveived effort to arm rebels in other countries but the handgun ammo questions that belief.
  5. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    Speaking with absolutely no clue as to how this process works (except for what I read looking in), could it be that they are stockpiling anticipating a significant increase in the costs of ammo? Ammo has gone up steadily, and most (or at least a large part of the order) of the rounds read as simple ball rounds that function in range settings and can also function in LEO settings.

    I don't think that this is an attempt to arm someone outside of DHS (like rebels somewhere), if that is the case, then we would not have heard about this until 20 years from now. I honestly think they are simply stockpling the ammo to give them the ability to practice and qualify and train (etc) DHS wide. The same thing with the Scial Security Admin ordering some 100k+ rounds - many of the offices (if not all of them) have armed SSA LEOs in them, and those folks have to practice and qualify to remain armed. Transfer that to DHS wide staff, and those rounds disappear fairly steadily over the next couple of years, so it could simply be a large order to provide for the needs of the next few years? (just thinking out loud mind you)
  6. RB

    RB Founding Member

    1.2 billion rounds, which is the total of two DHS contracts, is a lot of stockpiling.

    Page 49 of the PDF link in post #1 has a list of the various rounds. Few are FMJ. Most are rounds not intended for target practice but meant to kill people or other types of animals.
    jtodd and Elizabeth Conley like this.
  7. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    It is ironic, is it not? FMJ for use against foreign troops and combatants, hollow points for use against your own citizens. The handgun rounds are puzzling though.
    jtodd and Elizabeth Conley like this.
  8. TravelnMedic

    TravelnMedic Original Member

    Ammo prices have gone up due to military demand for ammo over the past several years. Also politco fear mongering has driven demand and prices up. With that being said the price of the 4 brands of new Ammo for pistol I buy hasnt moved in 4 years, some has come down in price. The only one that has gone up is the speciality 22LR rounds (match grade and tracers) and thats been about 50% increase.

    Rifle is a different story as its gone insane as at first of the year I could buy Winchester (WCC headstamp) M855/SS109 (62 gr steel penetrator) for $7-8/20 rounds, 420rds in sealed ammo cans for $120-140, and 1000 round loose for 299. Now its like $9-11/20, $180-200/420 and 400+/1000 rd cases (some pleaces have $800-$1000 prices for 1000 boxes). M193 (55gr FMJ) is not much better as its maybe 20% lower the M855.

    Anything in rifle ammo is getting to the point where reloading becomes more economical to reload then buy new or reloads. Which has its advantage as I can watch the QC on the rounds and improve the loads/accuracy. Only brass I have bought recently was Lake City 5.56 brass that was converted for 300Blk as right now those rounds are selling for $3-4 and I can make rounds for 0.40-0.49 a piece with match grade components. Beyond that the range lets me scavenge all the pistol and rifle brass I can carryout, especially out of the rifle bay(s). I sort, deprime, swage, and clean the brass I need and then see who in my group of friends is looking/needing brass, any left over or junk brass is crushed and sold for scrap.

    Same goes for firearm prices thers been a across the board 5-15% increase, on complete firearms and components. Demand is up so much in certain areas that manufactures have stopped taking orders so they can clear the massive baglog

    The government purchase of HP in the volumes they have committed to is very disconcerting as those rounds arent kosher under nato rules, but fine for domestic use. I dont think its because they have the money either.
  9. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    I used to buy a lot of used brass through Shotgun News & Gun List. Shotgun List is now on-line, ads are cheap. Gun List (gunlistusa.com) also appears to be on-line although I'm not sure it's the same paper -- ads are free. Seems less wasteful to sell it than to crush it. :)
  10. TravelnMedic

    TravelnMedic Original Member

    it is what it is, the left over has been 9mm markov and misc calibers and its not much other then the gazillion 650 of 22lr and other rimfire brass.

    The only upside to 5.56 that gets damaged(split necks or cracks) is that it can be resized/formed into 300Blk to extend there life.
  11. RB

    RB Founding Member


    Sure sounds like DHS is getting ready for a big hunt. I'm afraid that the populace of the United States are the intended game.
  12. FetePerfection

    FetePerfection Founding Member Coach

    This is frightening( it really is)...maybe they intend to arm TSA clerks...not really.
  13. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Most of that is ar15/m4 ammo. 176000 rounds is sniper .308, 168 grain hollow point boat tail, which is stabilized for very long range (in civilian scenarios) shooting. I've used that round in rem 700 pss--very accurate. It saddens me to no end that this will be used on US citizens. On whoever is defined as "the enemy"
  14. N965VJ

    N965VJ Original Member

    I'm more concerned about how massive procurements like this affect the market in regards to civilian prices. Keep in mind DHS has a lot of armed personnel in their child agencies. Coast Guard, CBP, Secret Service, etc. Each armed individual is required to have X rounds, fire X rounds in training every year, and so on. It adds up.
  15. RB

    RB Founding Member

    So how many people make up DHS and all child agencies? How many rounds per person do these people have allocated to them?
  16. N965VJ

    N965VJ Original Member

    It might be tough to get the numbers on the Secret Service, but when an error in the procurement process for NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement made it look like the Weather Service was buying ammo last month, a few numbers were broken down.

  17. Frank

    Frank Original Member

    It works out to over 1400 rounds for every non-military constabulary officer currently commissioned in the USA.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  18. TravelnMedic

    TravelnMedic Original Member

    Still the sheer volume of rounds is a bit no pun intended ... is overkill. Someone is thinking of either pulling something or is planning/expecting to put down a population uprising. What ever it is prices are going up up big time, partially due the cost of materials (brass, lead and such are at historic highs), but in general its been $1-4/box increase in pistol and $2-6/box in rifle. The AR craze going on being the other part/factor in driving prices up big time ontop of the uncertainty of the coming election.

    Also people have been seeking/scavenging/hoarding Lake City 5.56 brass for reloading and for making 300Blk rounds. Lake City Military Brass has thicker walls that allows hotter loads and can be reloaded more times. On average .223 brass lasts 2-5 reloads where as I have LC 5.556 on there 15th reload and not showing any signs of fatique/breakdown where I would need to dispose/crush. The other driving factor is the "new" 300AAC or 300Blk (blackout) round that uses a shortend 5,56 case with a 7.62 projectile. (7.62x35 vs the 5.56x45mm).

    Here is a breakdown off price increases in calibers/rounds. This is not a all inclusive list as exotic calibers/loads are not available in all markets

    115gr FMJ Box 1,000 Fall 2011 $149.99 Now $190+ - This is once fired reloads which isnt bad, but so popular hard to find anyone with boxes instock at even $190/1000
    115gr FMJ -- Box of 50 Jan 1 10.99 Now 14.99-19.99
    115gr TMJ -- Box of 50 Jan 1 9.99 Now 12.19-14.99
    124gr TMJ -- Box of 50 Jan 1 9.99 Now 13.19-14.99
    147gr FN TMJ-- Box of 50 Jan 1 9.99 Now 12.19-14.99
    115gr FMJ -- Box of 100 Jan 1 $17.97 Now 22.97 -- Alot of this has been WCC military brass which is sought after by reloaders, also accuracy is pretty good for a factory load.

    230gr TMJ Box of 50 -- Jan 1 $18.99 Now 21.99
    230gr JHP Box of 500 -- Jan 1 $150 Now $190
    230gr FMJ Box of 50 -- Jan 1 $17.99 Now 19.19
    230 gr FMJ Box of 50 -- Jan 1 $15.99 Now 19.79

    WCC 5.56 62gr M855/SS109 - Jan 1 6.99/20 Now 8.99-12.99 if you can find it. 2 years ago you could get 1,000 round loose boxes for $225 now its 400+ per 1000
    AE .223 55gr FMJ Jan 1 3-4.99/20 Now 6-8.99/20
    LC 5.56 55gr M193 Fall 2011 5.99/20 Now 8.99+/20
    LC 5.56 62gr M855 Fall 2011 6.99/20 Now 9.99+/20
    LC 5.56 64gr M856 Fall 2011 7.99/20 Now 9.59+/20
    PMC .223 55gr FMJ Fall 2011 $3/20 Now: 6.39/20 and up -- PMC is brand that people either like or hate as in the past there have been problems, but for plinking and messing around its fine as
    PMC .223 62Gr FMJ Fall 2011 $3.50/20 Now: 7.99 /20 and up as groupings are 2.5" at 100 yds on average. brass is press good and reloads well. There X-tac line is very good but $1-2 more per 20


    LC NATO 7.62 130gr OTMRP Fall 2011 $20/20 now its $28/20 if you can find it.
    LC NATO 7.62 168gr BTHP 500rd loose box; Last box I paid $250 (Summer 2011 today that box costs $375

    I use Montana Gold Projectiles for reloads (for target, and competition), A-Max, SMK in all calibers and prices have only gone up %10 in the past 3 years, and 15% in the last 5 years.
    *I do not load my own personal defense rounds due to liability but I use Hornaday Critical Duty for that use

    For those not familar with ammunition lingo or termonlogy
    JHP = Jacket Hollow Point
    FMJ = Full Metal Jacket. This is classic hard ball where the nose is a solid metal formed into a bullet with the rear lead core exposed
    TMJ = Total Metal Jacket: This is a plated bullet with no lead exposed, great for ranges that ban FMJ/exposed lead cores.
    CMJ = Complete Metal Jacket... See TMJ
    FN = Flat Nose
    BT = Boat Tail
    WCC - Western Cartridge Company (Subsidiary of Winchester)
    LC = Lake City Military ammunition plant (federal has the military ammo contract right now, was previously run by Winchester)
    AE = American Eagle (one of many Federals brands/labels for ammunition)
    M193 = 55gr FMJ for 5.56 caliber
    SS109/M855 = called a Steel Core Penetrator or "Light Armor Piercing" is the only "AP" like round that civilians can puchase
    M856 = Tracer, typically used with M855 rounds in a 1:5 ratio (1-M856, 4-M855)
    OTMRP = Open Tip Match Rear Penetrating
    gr = grain is used as a weight measurement for powers and projectiles.
    A-max = Hornaday trademark for there match grade rifle bullets
    SMK = Sierra Match King - Sierra's brand name for there match grade bullets. In my opinion some of the best rifle bullets Ive ever shot. Have gotten .48"MOA 5 shot groupings at 100m

    .223 = 5.56 -- they are close but not the same you can load .223 rounds in a 5.56 chamber but not the other way around. 5.56 chamber you can shoot 5.56 or .223 rounds without a problem. However .223 in a 5.56 chamber me result in less accuracy

    I miss anything
  19. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    We are printing anywhere from $80 billion to $135 billion per month, out of thin air, to pay for federal overspending and to clear bad assets from bank balances. Where is all that money ending up? stock market, bond market, and commodities--things we buy. Prices of everything have been going up.
  20. Frank

    Frank Original Member

    And yet the CPI is only at 1.6%, which anyone who buys things knows is bull:poop:. The numbers are rigged, to keep the stock market from crashing and Obama(lamadingdong) in office.

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