Government Security News: Bazooka round causes DFW evacuation

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Mike, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    Perhaps (not really), but even the inert ones are verboten in the vast majority of cases (and always in carry on), so at a minimum the items will not be allowed to pass.
  2. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Rugape, I think you're deliberately pretending to be dense. The point is that all your/TSA's "security" doesn't amount to a hill of beans when anyone can simply detonate himself or something else inches from your vaunted perimeter/"sterile area."

    And repeating stuff like this:
    is especially pointless. We know what the TSA is tasked with. We know none of you are law enforcement officers. We know you're not armed. We know you have no arrest authority, even though plenty of your colleagues like to intimidate passengers by pretending they do, and have actively threatened passengers with arrest, as you well know.

    We know all this stuff, and you know we know it. You just keep repeating it, as if that somehow is addressing a point. Maybe it scores you brownie points with your bosses, since they probably love the PR, but it's meaningless in the context of the real world and real people and the real activities of the TSA.
    patom, Doober, barbell and 4 others like this.
  3. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    So what point are you trying to make? If you are making the point that lines at the checkpoints are a threat area, yes they are - what would you like me in my capacity to do about it? I work to make the transit of the checkpoint as pain free as possible for all that come in. When you have as many people trying to fly as we do (nationwide) and the current regulations, it will take time to process those folks through. If you remove the screening process in its entireity, then you shift the target area to several other locations. Even if you scale the screening process back to 9/10 levels there will still be crowds at the checkpoints and check-in counters. Currently the wait times at many airports are in line with wait times from 15 years ago, some are at better levels. There will always be some sort of a crowd trying to get on airplanes, primarily at the larger airports, but small ones have them too. At least with the current system, there is a better chance of preventing dangerous items from getting past the checkpoint areas, and on to the planes -which can create a larger damage base in many cases. The loss of 35 people at a checkpoint would be horrendous (any deaths would be likewise horrendous), but adding a large jet with tons of fuel and other items in it could result in hundreds dying, and a larger damage area. There are actually programs and LEO patrols that work the checkpoint and common areas at all airports (some more than others). What changes would you make to the process to ease the checkpoint congestion, while keeping the current security paradigm of a secured or sterile area? I am intrigued with the new checkpoint visions I see coming up - the tunnel approach, the active scanning without hands on involvement for the majority of cases, etc, but they are years off. I dislike some of the programs and regulations we have (as I have said many times before), I think some are counterproductive, but they are the regulations in place as of this moment.
  4. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    As I've already said, that TSA's "security" doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

    It does, however, amount to abuse.
    Caradoc and Elizabeth Conley like this.
  5. Do you have a source for this? Loads of anecdotes say wait times are atrocious. I was personally shocked the one time I waited in a line that routed through one WTMD, one MMW. Progress in that line was glacial.

    I think another point she's trying to make is that you deliberately avoid/evade/refuse to comment on many damning points that don't suit your propagandist agenda.
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  6. Oh, also, in response to this:

    This is something of a straw man argument. There are a number of ways in which the current security paradigm is neither secured nor sterile. But to answer the question, how about focusing LESS on minutia in regular people's bags and pants, how about less time spent feeling over and peeping under the clothes of people who are clearly not a threat, less time confiscating water bottles and other clear non-threat items, less time, money and effort spent on TSA's image, and MORE focus on thoroughly background checking employees, hiring better people, training in REAL security techniques, checking cargo, checking vendors and contractors working airside, just to name a few things that come to mind this morning?

    Just to be clear, I'm not arguing about the bazooka round here. I don't enough about that stuff to comment on it. I'm talking about your refusal to see the big picture.
    barbell and Lisa Simeone like this.
  7. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I can tell you for certain that GSO wait times are lower even with the addition of MMW. Last fiscal year, ATL had an average wait time of less than 30 minutes at the main terminal, that is ATL! The compiled average since 2006 has been about 25 minutes at ATL, and last fiscal year it was roughly 13.6 minutes. That was just a quick read over from this site :

    Most of my information comes from talking to individuals at the airports, contacts I have in several different cities across the nation. My contact in IND says their averages are down almost 3 minutes the last year. My contact at PHX says their wait times are down almost 1.5 minutes over the last 2 years. My contact at LAX says their average is down almost 5 minutes from pre 9/11 levels - he has been working there since long before the creation of TSA.

    I refuse to answer what you refer to as damning points because I am not at liberty to discuss SSI, period. I have explained that before, yet many here take that as a sign that I am just avoiding the subject to "suit my agenda". Let me give you a sample answer you would get for many of the questions here "What do you think about X?", "Well, X is SSI, can't talk about it" "Coward" "No, just illegal for me to discuss it, and there could be jail time involved if I do" "Propagandist, coward" "Again, I have been instructed to not disclose or discuss SSI under penalty of possible jail time" "coward", repeat ad nauseum. So to prevent that entire conversation from occuring on a regular basis, I simply do not comment on SSI threads.
  8. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    Not really a straw man, this is the current paradigm that is in place, many of the requirements in the system have been placed there (Or at least have been kept there) by Congress. A sweeping reform of the pradigm would require a fairly significant shift in the thought process of many outside the organization.

    Just so you know, I agree with removing the minutia, we should be focusing on WEI, and whenever we have an employee doing something wrong removed, inside I cheer a little that they are gone, and mourn a little because it happened in the first place. I have always been against the LAG rules, they are a no-win situation for the organization as they are applied. We currently have some lack in tech that could enable better rules in place, but that is on the way (just too slowly for my taste).
  9. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Fisher might have something to say about wait times since his research shows the opposite of what Rugape says.

    As for the trump card -- SSI! SSI! SSI! -- yes, straw man indeed, but pointless to go on about it. Nobody here is asking you to reveal the Super Secret Decoder Ring stuff. No one. We're posing philosophical questions that you refuse to answer, claiming everything is SSI.

    Why aren't the wait times SSI, I wonder? After all, a Big Scary Terrorist could read what you write, Rugape, figure out where the wait times are longest, thus crushing the greatest number of people together in one place, thus causing the biggest splat when he sets off his bomb. Because, as we know, So Many Terrorists are out there, lurking, with bombs strapped to their backs. Er, I mean boobs. Er, butts. Er, hair weaves. Oh, well, you know.
    phoebepontiac and DeafBlonde like this.
  10. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Under what Federal law would discussing SSI be "criminal" and worthy of jail time?
  11. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    "Secret Squirrel Inanity" is dangerous stuff. Individuals need special indocrination into the TSA's counter-culture in order to process the gross stupidity of our Federal Government without experiencing an aneurysm or similar, life-threatening medical crisis.
    patom and DeafBlonde like this.
  12. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    Other enforcement traditionally means that jail time could be a part of the process. It may not be likely, but I am not weilling to take that chance. At the least, I become less affluent than I currently am.
  13. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    SSI actually began in 1976 for the FAA. It has been around much longer than TSA.
  14. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Like I said. *Criminal.* The link you provide is pretty specific that "SSI" is a civil matter.

    § 1520.17 Consequences of unauthorized disclosure of SSI.
    Violation of this part is grounds for a civil penalty and other
    enforcement or corrective action by DHS, and appropriate personnel
    actions for Federal employees. Corrective action may include issuance
    of an order requiring retrieval of SSI to remedy unauthorized
    disclosure or an order to cease future unauthorized disclosure.

    So, basically, TSA employees are bound to SSI by way of their paycheck and ethical bankruptcy.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  15. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    If you willingly disclose say... the SOP, in its entirety, I am certain that there would be the ability (in certain cases) to apply prison time (or at least attempt to) if the disclosure is egregious enough. The above is simply the regulation on SSI, there are other things that the disclosure could be charged under with the correct situation. "Other enforcement" is extremely vague, and leaves the door open to a myriad of possibilities, and the reg does not specifically state that there is no possibility of encarceration. You may read that one way, but I am not willing to disclose SSI for more than one reason:

    1. I am not gonna do it because it would be wrong in the first place.
    2. It is illegal per the regs (whether it is civil or criminal is still an open argument and maybe circumstantial based upon the actual disclosure and intention)
    3. It does not serve the mission (argue all you want, I still view the job as the mission)

    You can have contrary opinions/viewpoints all you want, but SSI is a no-go at this station and always will be (regardless of jail time/no jail time).
  16. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    It's too bad TSA employees don't really have a sense of "right" and "wrong."
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  17. Fisher1949

    Fisher1949 Original Member Coach

    Oh for heavens sakes. We've posted the videos of people going through scanners and WTMDs. Any moron with a watch and eyes can see the difference. At least 20 seconds, no if, ands or buts. Anyone who wants to argue to the contrary is a certified moron and not worthy of a response other than to remind them that they're an idiot.
  18. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Wait times being down a certain number of minutes means nothing without knowing what that original time was.

    In my opinion a wait time of even 15 minutes is excessive since TSA policy ensures there is no true sterile area. ID checking is a total waste of time, marking on boarding passes is pointless, say your name games is pure stupidity, not to mention the civil rights violations of security screenings which are clearly not an administrative search.

    You can continue to hide behind SSI but you know damn well many things being done to the public by TSA are clearly not security related.

    TSA is about as AFU as any organization can get and you are part of that organization that abuses the public.
  19. RB

    RB Founding Member

    I never heard of SSI before the reign of TSA Terror, did you? Don't know your previous security clearances but I did have a fairly high clearance during my military service years and never once was the term SSI in any publication or document that I can recall.
  20. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    But note the propaganda in the lie.

    The data we've been given, which we all instinctively know to be a lie, is that average wait times are down. There's a lot of wiggle room there.

    Because of TSA policies, people must now show up to the airport a minimum of 90 minutes before a domestic flight. That makes some people very nervous, so they show up earlier than that and breeze on through. Then the bottlenecks bring everything to a halt when a bank of departures leave. Those people are literally waiting hours. Remember the reports from BOS when the "friendly" interrogations started. TSA couldn't handle the crowds, and blamed everybody else anyway? So what you have is a bell curve of people who show up outside of airline scheduling banks and have no wait. And then you have everybody else. That creates an artificial average.

    And to bring up ATL as a valid security wait time data point is ludicrous. ATL does not function as an O&D hub, and certainly not in the way ORD, LAX, or BOS does. No way. Anyone with a brain who deals with this stuff on a daily basis would know that instinctively. Ergo, to cite ATL wait times as lower is false. There simply isn't the volume of people trying to access ATL through ATL's chokepoints that there would be at these other hubs.

    Let me paint everybody a picture of my former home airport. With the introduction of the TSA, ATL has around 30 individual checkpoints. With the advent of electronic strip searching, they tried really, really hard to force everyone through the junkatrons by closing off about 23 WTMD-only lines. I never waited less than 45 minutes in a line at ATL since 2010. Never. Average wait times may be lower, but actual wait times are ridiculous.

    Oh, and let's talk about a much, much, much smaller hub that relies more heavily on O&D traffic. MEM is down to around 100 DL flights a day, so I'm going to guestimate that MEM sees a total of about 150 passenger flights daily across all carriers. You wanna talk about a clusterfuck? Let's assume standard averages that a hub has about 60% O&D, and with 150 flights at about 100 seats, you're looking at approximately 9,000 people to process across an entire day. If you have 3 chokepoints with 4 electronic strip search machines (and there is no other choice as WTMD is now physically blocked at most all times there), you're looking to process about 225 people per hour assuming a 10-hour operational day. There is no reason I should consistently be waiting 30 minutes, at a minimum, to get to the start of this process, and yet it has been the norm for the last 2 years. Gee, can anybody think of anything that changed 2 years ago to cause that?
    phoebepontiac likes this.

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