Kicked Out of FLL! The Double Opt-Out...

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Affection, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. Affection

    Affection Original Member

  2. RB

    RB Founding Member

    TS/S on FT is undergoing renovations of some kind and will be down for the next week.
  3. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    The key here is that 49% of the population must ask them "Will you be touching my penis/scrotum/testicles/buttocks" and the other 51% must ask "Will you be touching my vulva/breasts/buttocks?" That 51% should also ask "will you be touching my vagina" even though that is not something readily achievable even by the most dedicated karate-chopping TSO. This of course is chiefly for the shock value of uttering the word "vagina".

    These are all perfectly legitimate questions and can never be characterized as obstruction or refusal.

    It has been widely reported that TSOs react very poorly when asked specific detailed questions like this, and I suspect the reason is that they have been very poorly trained. I would be astounded indeed if their trainers used the words "penis/scrotum/vulva" or what have you to describe what they will be doing. Instead, I suspect they just the stock phrases such as "resistance" or whatever. This is of course part of the Milgram/Zimbardo problem of having to achieve mental distance from what they are doing.

    Thus, when the mental distance provided by the agency's newspeak is stripped away, when the passenger asks "will you be touching my testicles" the TSO is left with the rather shocking realization of what he is about to do, which wasn't something he'd bargained for when first read about the job on the pizza box.
    N965VJ, Lisa Simeone and barbell like this.
  4. VH-RMD

    VH-RMD Original Member

    why it will take a week is anyone's guess. Perhaps they hope everyone has a short attention span and will forget TS/S exists?
    Lisa Simeone and FriendlySkies like this.
  5. KrazyKat

    KrazyKat Original Member

    Kudos, Jon!
    Of course the same can't be said for the screeners.
  6. jtodd

    jtodd Original Member

    ^ to both, but especially the opt out and holding to your guns!

    If only more would do this, this crap would come to a quick and decisive end.
    barbell likes this.
  7. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    I love that you called the TSM's bluff.

    You are my personal hero.

    And I don't understand this need to read everything. What? Do they expect that since they're "looking" for sheet explosives :rolleyes: that if they read them it will say something like, "Caution! Sheet Explosive!" Good grief.
  8. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    I wouldn't have noticed. I quit posting there in mid-May when the quality of moderation nosedived. I started TUG in early June a few hours after FT's Dear Leader informed me that, "It's never cool to call out a mod." We do hope you'll spend more time here, where all the moderators (coaches) are gainfully employed. :)
  9. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Well, sorta... :oops:
  10. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    Being hard at work setting up a business definitely counts as gainfully employed!

    But Sammy Dearest's remodeling announcement inexplicably disappeared, so now people are noticing that they can no longer post there but have no clue as to why -- great way to treat your users & run a forum.
  11. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    Just finished reading your blog post. Nice work at FLL, Jon. :D

    Apparently that disclosure card must now be SOP. I've also heard of it being used recently at SEA.
  12. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Excellent stuff Jon. I don't know why these folks feel they have to lie. That kind of behavior just underlines the danger we face from people like this who just make stuff up. What kind of stuff do they make up in the private booth? Just let you go on your way. Am looking forward to the video.

    hat's off to the deputy that was there.

    btw, when I flew last week after many months of not, I had backup rail routes planned and decided what my limits were. No genital contact period, and warnings that if that happened, it would constitute assault. the butt rub is close to the old patdown, esp if done by a skilled person, so it wasn't as important. Knowing I had options and that I was not obliged to give in to these people was great psych prep in "taking back" the airport and making me in charge of the situation again.
    KrazyKat likes this.
  13. gojirasan

    gojirasan Original Member

    Very nice, but why didn't you just walk away as soon as you were selected or at least as soon as you realized they weren't going to give you a non-genital patdown? Why did you stand there and allow them to delay you for an hour and illegally search all of your stuff? Since you weren't requesting to get past the checkpoint there was no need for you to answer their questions, talk to them at all, or even stick around. You can't actually be detained until the police arrive.

    Once the cop did arrive, did you use the "Am I free to go? Am I being detained? I don't consent to any searches." strategy? In that kind of situation there really is nothing else to say. Unfortunately you may have had no choice but to give your ID to the cop when he requested it since Florida seems to be a stop and identify state. Although even then they can only require ID in a terry stop situation where they have reasonable suspicion that you have committed or are about to commit a crime. I wonder if you are on some kind of TSA troublemaker list now. What did you do about your flight? Were you able to cancel your ticket before the flight departed?

    Incidentally, I plan to do almost exactly the same thing if selected the next time I fly. Except that I will just immediately walk away from the checkpoint and try to make it out of the airport before the cops arrive. If the checkpoint is considered a constitution free zone by anyone at all that is one place I most definitely don't want to be during a police detainment or arrest. In the eyes of a judge I may very well have more rights as soon as I am away from the security checkpoint or outside the airport terminal. And at least at that point the TSA probably won't even be in the loop any more. It might be 100% LEOs, which may simplify things from a legal perspective. There are already well defined rules in place. Also it will no doubt really piss off the TSOs to be dissed like that. They will lose any satisfaction they may otherwise get by punishing you directly for refusing their sexual advances.
  14. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Based on other discussions I think FT is going to make TSA discussion very difficult. I think that is why we saw IB people and multiple mods over the last few weeks.
    FriendlySkies and Doober like this.
  15. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    If he'd walked away, he would not have had any of this on record and therefore could not proceed with more litigation.

    Good job, Jon!
    barbell likes this.
  16. Awesome, Jon. I'm a big fan of your lawsuits! (Never thought I'd say that to somebody.)

    Inspired by your rousing post a couple months ago, I'm planning a double opt-out if we run into groping when I fly with my kids this winter. I plan to pick your brain for pointers on handling such a situation when it gets closer.
  17. Fisher1949

    Fisher1949 Original Member Coach

    Very well written story and a gutsy stand against this affront to civilized society. Thanks for your gallant efforts to regain our freedoms. I'm looking forward to the audio and transcription.

    BTW, what became of the trip?
  18. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    A couple months ago there was a sticky warning saying basically get off TSA and go back to talking about the overhead bin space or whatever.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  19. FriendlySkies

    FriendlySkies Member

    Just read your blog-- Wow!

    I kind of felt like I was standing there while you were being delayed by the smurf patrol. Considering the things I've heard about the FLL police, I'm amazed at the level of respect? that you were given.

    As far as the smurfs, I guess they must have recently worked on intimidation tactics 101. Seems like somethng they all enjoy doing.. Imagine if a suicide bomber was there.. I guess there tactics would take out several clerks.

    On to the copying of your BP, I've never understood the reasoning behind that. If you had a mobile BP, would they copy your phone screen? I always keep my phone locked with a passcode, so I'd like to see them try and force me to unlock it.. In that time, I could close the screen with the BP on it.

    Thanks for standing your ground against the TSA. I've been pushing the envelope farther and farther when I fly, but I do worry about trying some of my tactics when going through certain stations, ORD being one of them. I've had my fair share of run-in's there, with the latest one in May..

    Keep up the good work!
    KrazyKat and barbell like this.
  20. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    This is what boggles my mind about the entire TSA charade. It is so pathetically easy to distract an entire brigade of smurfs by simply standing up for yourself. How is it that these people do not understand that someone intent on getting through the process without being noticed so as to access a plane and blow it up as they fantasize isn't going to make themselves available for notice at the checkpoint? The people who design this part of the process can't be this stupid, can they?

    I think it's part of the intimidation factor. I, too, have been pushing the envelope in my travels. On the one time I've been smacked back down, it was write everything down from the BP. The guy seriously drew it out as if it had been photocopied. Hand it to the police. Hand it to the TSM. Hand it to another refused-to-identify-himself manager. Write the same information down again. It was actually comical to watch.

    And at the end, when it was determined I wasn't a threat :rolleyes:, my BP was handed back to me, and then another manager demanded it so he could "make a copy." I asked, "You've already written down all of the information off of it twice. What do you need a photocopy for?" "It's our policy." "To what? Intimidate and harass by writing down and copying the same information multiple times? All that proves is that you are so stupid you didn't write it down correctly the first 2 times."


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