Kicked Out of FLL! The Double Opt-Out...

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Affection, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Ha! I wish my checking account agreed! :)
    KrazyKat and FriendlySkies like this.
  2. KrazyKat

    KrazyKat Original Member

    Or my bank! But labor without wages, as gainful employment, is used against me whenever it suits the institutions. Talk about fraud...
  3. KrazyKat

    KrazyKat Original Member

    Apparently they are and are mighty proud of it to boot.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  4. OnTheAsile

    OnTheAsile Original Member

    The Wordpress link indicates "Oh, did I mention I have this all on tape?". I suggest that you do a bit of researching in the CFR's and whatever else you can find.
    I seem to remember that someone over at FF mentioned there was a federal law against audio recording. Have searched and have not found the federal statute yet yet.
    Your state may have a similar law.
    Herse is one from St Mary's Maryland "Woman Arrested for recording deputy"

    This is also interesting reading. I have not talked to lawyer or other knowledgeable person. The way I read it TSA fits the definition as they without any doubt
    intimidatie and coerce the civilian population (traveling public) to comply with their inspection process. Sounds like that is what happend to you.

    "The New Legal Definition of "Domestic Terrorism"
    In part:
    (a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended:
    (4) by adding at the end the following:
    `(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
    `(B) appear to be intended--
    `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population"

    To verify the following you may have to do a bit of research.
    They may also be in violation of the Privacy Act of 1974
    Am not sure if they are legally allowed to divulge personal privacy information that they discover during an inspection to a party(police caled to site) not specifically in their agency(TSA). I think NOT. I think that the outside party must make a formal specific written request to the discovering agency information, naming the party of interest. The discovering agency cannot go to another party and say we have information on this if you want it. I believe there is a very specific written process for the outside party to obtain the information.
    I vaguely recall reading that this was a problem with the 2001 attack. Known information of the individuals could not legally be passed to other agencies
    Most police are very aware on the constraints placed on them by the Privacy Act and are very cautious in what they do to protect their selves from suit.

    Hope that there may be at least one bit of information to assist....


  5. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Oh, but here's the problem, under this definition, it is not actors of the State who may be seen to "intimidate or coerce", but those of us who would speak out against those who are doing the intimidating and coercing. Ergo, TSA and the police are blameless because they are looking for those who are intimidating and coercing. They see themselves as blameless. :confused:
    Elizabeth Conley and KrazyKat like this.
  6. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Bankers are an odd breed, aren't they?
  7. Affection

    Affection Original Member

    Thank you for all your support! Some replies:

    I totally agree. After the TSA turned me down at FLL, I took a one-way car rental to RSW (scanner free, but 2 hours away), where US Airways re-accomodated me for free! The one-way car rental I had booked days before, just in case I had TSA trouble. It costs nothing and automatically expires if you don't use it. Knowing that I had everything taken care of was comforting. It's also a bit mind-boggling that while one airport's TSA won't let me through, another will welcome me with open arms. As if a terrorist with a bomb wouldn't be able to do the same exact thing.

    One more thought on this regard: if you'd like to protest the TSA via double opt-out, you can do so on a non-travel day. Simply buy a fully-refundable boarding pass and head to the airport. I fly often enough that this strategy isn't necessary, but it does come with the advantage of not caring at all when they threaten you with DYWTFT!

    Could be. To me it smacked of coersion. Essentially, "you better go through this scanner, or else we'll molest you!" Kind of like, "you better let us feel you up, or we'll arrest you," which is what was given to me.
    I decided beforehand that the ID battle was not the one that I wanted to fight. My fight here is against the TSA, not the sherriff. It was very helpful to have the sheriff on my side here, and it was much appreciated. Along the same lines, asserting my right to leave was not the battle I wanted to fight either; I wanted to assert my right to stay! :)

    One note: there is no such thing as a "stop and identify" state anymore. The Supreme Court has squarely rejected the notion that a citizen can be required to carry around ID with you. If you go to my blog and read about my encounter with the NYPD, you'll see that I tested this in New York, which indeed has (invalidated) statutes requiring me to show ID, and these cops clearly knew they could not force me to show it.
    Florida is an "all-party consent" state, except it makes exceptions for in-person recording by one party where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. I am unaware of any federal statute or rule, but I hold firmly that it is unconsitutional to restrict my ability to record my interactions with the government. If they'd like to charge me on it, I will be most happy to show up in court.

  8. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Power. Control.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  9. N830MH

    N830MH Original Member

    I don't like TSA behavior in FLL. He have absolutely no reason why he kick it off from airport. He didn't do it anything wrong. TSA had no right to put him in body scanners. This is so disgusting! I can't stand it with TSA in FLL. It's time to removed all body scanners out all checkpoints. TSA had a bad attitude. I think he have fly out of MIA or PBI is better way to do it. FLL is very worst airport.

    Good riddance to TSA in FLL!!!
    Lisa Simeone and barbell like this.
  10. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Well, except MIA also has body scanners. I don't know about PBI, but it's getting harder and harder to avoid this nonsense.

    BTW - welcome to the Underground, N830MH!
  11. N830MH

    N830MH Original Member

    Thanks! Appreciated it for your efforts. I'm sure that I will post there sometime but, not too often.
  12. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    So, wait, are you telling me that Secure Flight and their other systems aren't collecting this information? :eek: ;) I mean, really, haven't they already collected all of that information 72 hours before the flight to make sure we're not evil and stuff? And those PNRs that are kept for eternity? Can't they just check what's in their computer systems? Okay Mr./Ms. TSA agent, I know, I know -- DIWTFT, and since I do, go ahead and copy the BP if it's going to make you feel all important and everything.
    barbell likes this.
  13. Affection

    Affection Original Member

    Just a note that I posted some of the audio today. :) Link below...

    Also, if you have a chance and would like to help, take a quick moment and submit the link to Drudge via their news tip form towards the bottom right of, letting them know that someone caught a TSA manager on tape admitting that the pat-downs require touching one's genitals and buttocks, and then threatening a passenger with arrest if he does not comply.

    Caradoc likes this.
  14. FriendlySkies

    FriendlySkies Member

    IIRC, PNRs are recycled a month or two after the last flight is flown. The e-ticket numbers stay around, but sounds like they disappear after 2+/- years.
  15. FriendlySkies

    FriendlySkies Member

    Thanks for posting the audio. I really hope you get the video, but I obviously have my doubts :rolleyes:

    Interesting how the TSM says that you can't leave the checkpoint. He has no power to detain you. In fact, I see nothing stopping you from collecting your belongings at that moment, and leaving the checkpoint*.

    *unless some clerks try to physically block you :td:
  16. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Generally speaking PNR's evaporate at midnight of the airline's system location the day after the last segment is completed and "closed". And then, yes, available to recycle about a month later.

    E-ticket numbers expire after about 18 months, depending on the circumstances, but true as a general rule.

    Now, the data stored by inSecureFlight? I imagine it is stored indefinitely, and someone somewhere may eventually try to build patterns, though I think it's just one big data dump. The interesting thing is that the information in the PNR and where inSecureFlight information is inputted into the record don't really "talk" to each other so that if the 2 don't match no one will ever know unless they know to go looking for it specifically. And so if you can read between the lines in that last sentence you know everything you need to know to circumvent the entire system.

    IOW, inSecureFlight relies on honest people honestly entering their information correctly. Whatever is entered into those fields is checked against a list. Unless they have made updates to 50 year old technology in the 3-ish years I've been gone that they couldn't do in the 5-ish years I was there, no one,, at TSA will know if the information they are getting is what is being shown at the checkpoint. Idiots. Absolute idiots.
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  17. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The PNRs are around a lot longer than that but inaccessible to most people. They can actually be made visible again if someone adds a dummy future segment to it. With a base 34 system (there are a couple characters not used to avoid confusion), there are 1.5 trillion possible combinations.

    The airlines actually keep the information in their own databases indefinitely. There have been a number of instances of Delta's infamous Revenue Protection Unit (RPU) coming after people for purported fraud & docking FF accounts for mileage balances years later.
  18. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    True, if a segment exists and is inserted into the record prior to midnight following the completion of the last flight ("24 hours" in airlinespeak).

    Depends on the airline.

    I don't know about DL, but for most airlines that medium is microfiche. No joke.
  19. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    From the ultimate :rolleyes: authority, Wikipedia:

    Microfiche as a backup or archival medium for electronic data makes no sense, even given the archaic nature of reservations systems such as Deltamatic. Removable media such as tapes & disks have been readily available since the 60's. Deltamatic was upgraded to S/360 in the early 70's. To keep it running, ultimately they would have had to upgrade to S/370 or later hardware which supports the concept of virtual machines -- within the confines of S/370 (or later) hardware you can run both old and modern systems simultaneously. Understanding or writing code to retrieve data directly from a disk system is no big deal.

    Additionally, PNR data is swept into other modern operational systems, e.g. the Delta Nervous System. Once there, it might be out of reach of a normal PNR lookup, but it's still there.

    NW & especially CO both had state-of-the-art systems for managing customer info over time (there's a term for that which escapes me at the moment).

    Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that PNRs disappear at the stroke of midnight. 40 years in DP tells me otherwise. :)
  20. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    No one is saying they disappear.

    And what you know about Delta may not be true at other airlines.

    I do know, because I had to go pull data on occasion, that at least one medium for storing such data is on microfiche. Is to this day.

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