Mandatory opt-out from TSA screening for Alaska airports

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Mike, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    First, because it would not be the right thing to do, regardless of my personal opinions. Second, because I really do not like jail or losing money.
     
  2. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    So much for your "change from within." It seems you're perfectly happy to be a quisling.
     
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  3. The "right" thing? By your definition, I think Rosa Parks did the "wrong" thing, and so did Gandhi. So did the founders of this country. So did Jesus.

    One of the most important concepts I've learned about from watching professional wrestling (and Buffy!) is moral ambiguity. Official definitions of right and wrong change with the wind, and the ruling institution will screw you over as soon as it suits them, whether or not you have been a loyal follower of their rules, whether or not it is "right" or "wrong" for them to do so. I'm not an advocate of moral relativism, but right and wrong are not defined by regulations and ruling authorities. They come from a very different place.

    Now, does that mean it would be the right thing for you personally to reveal SOP? I don't know, but I can say with certainty that your argument here (and your justification for working for a fundamentally flawed institution) is very weak.
     
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  4. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    It's not my truth, and you don't have to take my word for it. You can look at any number of videos on youtube. People are getting their chest rubbed and back rubbed vigorously, and yes, they are getting the Aladdin treatment on their behinds, albeit with the backs of the hands. It is grotesque.

    I have. You could too, if you were inclined. Watch the video of Mrs. Abbott's daughter getting hit in the crotch forcefully enough to lift the 15 y/o girl upwards. The inside the thigh to the crotch and touching the crotch is absolutely criminal and uncalled for, especially when done for NO cause, even after the person passes screening (when you do it randomly).

    If you recall, it was a LOT worse in the month October to November when this started, until the public outcry forced you to stop. Now, it may be like it used to be, but it happens a LOT more than it used to and you do it to people randomly whereas before it used to be done only for some kind of cause. Again, criminal and uncalled for.

    I have not seen, prior to black October 2010, a frisk that involved the repeated rubbing of the butt, even with the back of the hands. Yes,, my friend, that HAS changed. I've seen some clerks do it the old way and I've seen clerks do the invasive rubbing; you could too, if you could stomach the videos that are ubiquitous by now. I agree they should be accountable for it. A sound beating with a two by four would be about right.

    Much of the time, this is probably true. But it's like russian roulette. At some point, you're going to hit the loaded chamber. And then, if you're like me, you'll have to miss your flight, because you won't put up with this. You folks have made yourselves hated worse than terrorists for doing these things.
     
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  5. RB

    RB Founding Member

    TSA are the terrorist!
     
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  6. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    ^ Precisely!

    TSA is a much bigger problem in our day-to-day lives than terrorists.
     
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  7. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    It was not an argument, it was a statement of fact. Disclosing something that is rated as SSI (whether I agree with it or not) is not something that can be deemed "right" to do from my point of view. I come from a long history of security clearances and such, and speaking outside the wire is something that I will not do. Rosa Parks did what she felt was right, so did Gandhi, so did Jesus - disclosing SSI is not something that I feel is "right", so, I am not going to do it.
     
  8. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    As I recall, there were no changes (still haven't been), the buttocks are the same procedure, the breasts are the same procedure - if something is different, then there is something outside the regs going on.
     
  9. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    If running your hands under my wife's bra on 1 Nov. 2010 (Grope Inauguration Day) simply because she was wearing a skirt was the same old procedure, then perhaps you're right and nothing changed. However, that doesn't net you or any other screener a pass -- we'll rest when TSA is history.
     
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  10. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    I guess you feel that sticking your hands into people's pants is "right." It speaks volumes of your lack of character.
     
  11. RB

    RB Founding Member

    The difference is that what Gandhi, Jesus and Rosa Parks did took courage.
     
  12. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    If not courage, character. Or backbone. All lacking in anyone willing to put on the blue-shirt uniform of the modern quisling.
     
  13. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Look. Rugape is just blowing smoke up our collective *sses. He knows this has changed and the extent to which it has changed. He is here to dampen criticism of TSA, period. He's doing his job trying to make us believe everything is just fine and the TSA is just fine. Except for those occasional one-offs Rugape? yeah right.

    Take a look at Affection's latest experience:
    http://www.travelunderground.org/index.php?threads/kicked-out-of-rsw-the-double-opt-out-part-iiiā€¦-plus-new-suit-filed.2335/

    Clearly, you folks TSA is tasked with touching our privates. It cannot be honestly denied and yet you deny this post after post.
    [edited to comply with the spirit of coach Mike's instructions.]
     
  14. I know you're determined to miss my point here, but I will say this. Those people saw things that were deeply wrong in their societies (not unlike, for example, requiring people to follow rules that are kept secret from said people, a process that has led to grotesque abuses). Those people broke the rules to stand up against what was wrong, knowing it threatened their livelihoods, safety, and even their lives -- because when you are in the position to stand up against what is wrong, it is the right thing to do.
     
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  15. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I understand your point, I just do not agree with what you are saying. You (not necessarily you, but some folks here) want me to "stand up and post SSI information here", what would that accomplish in the long term? Absolutely zero. I could post the entire SOP and every document of SSI I have access to, and you would have about 48 hours before they changed what was written and then you would have the same situation all over again - new rules, with no knowledge of what they are or what to expect at the checkpoints(not to mention losing a voice of agreement on some things).

    Let me reiterate for the record, I am not going to disclose SSI because it would not be the right thing to do (from my point of view). I am sorry that you are obviously missing my point. I have learned over the years that to be effective, you have to pick and choose your battles. At this point, being a poster child for a 24 hour news cycle, followed by the numerous years of jail, courts and crap that followed it and achieving absolutely nothing but a rewrite of some of the rules is just not an effective trade off. To do this would also indicate that I am in league (at least in spirit) with those that oppose TSA on a fundamental level, which, I am not. I disagree with some of the policies, but who doesn't? Show me someone that agrees with every policy at work, and I will show you a sycophantic yes man (person) with no conscious.
     
  16. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Your willingness to continue abusing the traveling public in return for a paycheck makes this abundantly clear.

    And what you do is abuse. It's the core function of your "job."

    I believe you meant "conscience." It's the blue shirt and tin badge that indicate someone with no "conscious." This would mean that in order to work for the TSA, one must be unconscious, and conscienceless, as the "job" itself is unconscionable.
     
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  17. RB

    RB Founding Member

    http://www.toilette-humor.com/funny_airline_pat_downs/help_you_make_it_to_your_flight.shtml

    Enough said!!
     
  18. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    All this harping on SSI is pointless. It isn't going to be posted here unless we find it first on another site, and it isn't going to be emailed to any of us.

    A couple years ago someone emailed an SSI document to a journalist (I forget who) and and blogger known as the Flying Fish (Steve Frischlein or something like that). DHS showed up with invalid administrative warrants not worth the paper they were written on.

    The journalist fought it successfully through his company's lawyers, probably cost them a few thousand $.

    The Flying Fish (who's a bit of an idiot anyway) just rolled over and gave them his laptop. As a thank you for his cooperation, the DHS goons with the invalid warrants returned it a few days later -- damaged & non-functioning.

    Since I don't have a budget for such lawyers and I'd rather not buy a new laptop just yet, please continue any discussions of disclosing SSI outside of TUG.

    And when the discussion resumes, please lighten up a bit on rugape. We should be discussioning the issues, not attacking the individuals.
     
    Rugape likes this.
  19. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Honest question - what to do when the individuals are the issues?

    I think we can all agree that if the TSA couldn't find people sans conscience and morals who're willing and able to stick their hands in people's pants in return for a paycheck and the opportunity to steal from them, we wouldn't be here discussing such.
     
  20. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    That's a loaded question, and I choose not to answer it. Meanwhile, discuss the issues, not the individuals. If you feel you can't comply, you might need to find other threads to participate in.
     

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