Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by RB, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. yautjalady

    yautjalady Original Member

    Same here, I would be on them like white on rice...
    Plus in my training, we're always taught 'situational awareness'... element of surprise can negate having martial arts 'belts' ;)

    question- are the BDO's in uniform or not? If not... heheh, fair game :D

  2. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    1) I understand BDO is a waste of money and a fraud.
    2) I don't understand how it can be objectionable to ask travelers questions. Is there something I'm missing? I guess, what i mean is, is there some thought that this would lead to arbitrary mistreatment by TSOs at the checkpoint?
  3. yautjalady

    yautjalady Original Member

    I agree with #1.

    Question on #2 is, if they are "trying" to implement a form of Israeli style security here by using BDO's, what I'd like to know is, do the Israeli guys follow people around and ask them questions? There's a huge difference between a passenger going up to one person who asks them stuff and what the BDO's here are doing.

    Other observation, is if the pax is a lady travelling alone, there's a whole raft of things that she doesn't want blared out or have to tell somebody (who ELSE is overhearing her besides the person questioning?). Or worse yet, have some dork following her around. Most likely while NOT in uniform.

    If it was me having somebody pestering me, I'd tell em in no uncertain terms what to do with themselves. And follow up with calling the cops if they didn't back off. Oh, and if they were following me into the bathroom? They're fair game ;)

  4. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The problem is that some of them are a bunch of ill-trained, inept thugs who harass & pick fights with people.
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  5. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Not trying to be trollish on this, but I can't see how this could happen. For example, if a BDO asks, "How do you feel about flying today," and you say for example, "I don't wish to speak with you," is this type of response escalated somehow?
  6. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    Sorry, I'd suggest you remove the paper bag from your head.

    Some of them don't limit themselves to your idyllic scenario. In this case the moron was in my face repeatedly insisting that I was angry and demanding to know why. Had me flagged for extra security which was quickly terminated when I demanded a supervisor and complained about the retaliatory screening. The supervisor even apologized for having no control over the mind-reading thugs.

    What had happened was that I had walked into the first-class line at STL terminal A only to discover that it was "closed", rolled my eyes & got in the normal (non-priority) lane.

    This is good for us, in a way, because it probably will result in a major increase in complaints regarding the burger-flippers patrolling the concourses & restrooms annoying people. In a free society there is no need or excuse for us to be required to account to government minions in order to go about our daily business.
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  7. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    You know, if *I* were coming up with a passenger questioning protocol that required the passenger's free cooperation, where they were free to tell me to go pound sand, I don't think I'd soften them up for this by subjecting them to a crotch feel-over for several months beforehand. TSA's timing is so laughably awful it cannot be believed. The best that b*st*rd Pistole can do is to tell us that if we cooperate, they *might* not have to be so invasive. Show us the money FIRST, John. Quit the testicle/labia/butt/boob rubs, just quit with them. After a few months, then ASK people to help you. Good will does wonders. Is it so g-d damn hard for you to just be a human being? What entitles you to behave like some kind of king and try to shove this down our throats? How well is that working out for you folks?
    Lisa Simeone, jtodd, barbell and 2 others like this.
  8. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Frankly, I have to laugh every time I'm in an airport and the recording of Pistole comes on that says, "Thank you for being our partner in security."

    Really, John? F U! You just had your hand in this "partner's" pants. Seriously, go F yourself!

    Who wants to cooperate after being treated like that?
    jtodd, Wimpie, Lisa Simeone and 2 others like this.
  9. mikemey

    mikemey Original Member

    Pick me! Pick me! I wanna answer! Pick me! Pick me!

  10. N965VJ

    N965VJ Original Member

    That's another issue; they are kind of on their own with what they can do, which pushes them further way from accountability.
    Lisa Simeone and KrazyKat like this.
  11. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    It is none of the Federal Government's business where I'm going, how long I'm staying, and what I'm doing while I'm there.

    Historically, when governments have collected this type of information it has been for the purpose of abusing its citizens.

    As long as "I respectfully decline to answer." is an acceptable response, the TSA can ask away. As soon as "I respectfully decline to answer." is punished with detention, irradiation and/or sexual assault, there's a serious rights violation taking place.

    If I want to tell my government my business, I'll move to a peoples' democratic socialist republic or some such mumbo-jumbo. Until I choose to adopt the lifestyle of a domesticated ruminant, I cordially request that the DHS stop trying to screw up my country.
  12. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    I think on this we will have to see what actually occurs in practice. A few more somnolent loafers in TSA outfits aren't going to be much more of headache than the current crop of nitwits, which of course is already bad enough. And if this new crowd wanders around the airport asking fool questions of people, well, so what? The question is what if someone doesn't answer their questions. There have been some ominous threats, I think by Nico Melendez that "thorough screening" would ensue as a result of not answering questions, but is this a serious plan? Seems like there's a lot of problems with that approach.
  13. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    Even if one does get "thoroughly screened" as a result of refusal to answer what? Setting aside how obviously unjustifiable the gropedowns are, we can assume that TSA's goal (or at least the BDO commandants' goal) is to get people to answer BDO questions, right?

    So if one refuses, one gets "thoroughly screened." Well what happens if the passenger gets screened, is cleared of WEI, and goes about his/her merry way? No questions were answered and the passenger still flies, so FISSION MAILED, right?

    I've often thought about responding to a gropedown with a scoff and "Is that the best you got? THIS is what's supposed to persuade me to go through the cancer machine next time? Pathetic - I'll opt out every damn time now that I know." Even if the gropedown was horrific, if I (or any other hypothetical pax) respond with bravado and defiance, the TSOs can only assume that their deliberate attempt to get me to go through the cancertron by making the alternative "unbearable" was an abject failure.

    So wouldn't it be the same for BDOs? And if so, what about a "National Tell BDOs to Go F**k Themselves Day"? Get everyone refusing BDO interviews, sent for secondary, jamming up the lines. Would TSA be forced to revert to BDOless WTMD lines?
    Doober and rockon like this.
  14. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    The BDO program is yet another recipe for abuse. I don't see how having these numbskulls in your face "asking" (demanding is more like it) questions is anything but coercive. Look at how the TSA has behaved so far. Does anyone really believe that these BDOs, after 4 days in the classroom and 24 hours on the job, are: a) trained; b) likely to be any less abusive than their counterparts??

    They still have absolute power. They can still decide, for whatever reason, that they don't like your answers, that you have an "attitude," that they're just in the mood to f--- with you. Cops don't have the right to just come up to you on the street and start questioning you about what you're doing, why you're there, where you're going, etc. (even though, yes, I know that some cops abuse their power and I know that they do exactly what I'm describing in poor neighborhoods all the time -- still doesn't make it right).

    Bottom line is you have a right to go about your business, including travel, without somebody in your face asking inane questions, the answers to which may or may not get you harassed, abused, or detained.
  15. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Truth is, the more of this the better. TSA needs to hit bottom before it can be demolished.
    N965VJ and Elizabeth Conley like this.
  16. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    I completely agree. The more people who are impacted by the invasive actions of the TSA, the sooner the outrage will reach critical mass which will then lead to, at a minimum, real change.
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  17. cardiomd

    cardiomd Original Member

    I think you are unfortunately right -- the more people *who are impacted*, the bigger the outrage. It is a true shame that a great deal of people can't just *hear* of the outrageous stuff happening and get angry and want it to stop, as it is "somebody else." They have to wait for it to happen to *themselves.* After all, that other guy being felt up is probably Middle eastern or did something suspicious. :rolleyes: It won't happen to me.

    Unfortunately the BDO interaction might be just like this. I can imagine some of my pretty young blonde office interns saying, "yeah, like that was great, I talked to the guy and he just whisked me past security. It was so cool. He even asked for my business card and phone number after!" Are they ever going to get angry? No, it benefits them and "only hurts the bad guys."

    I have some close friends that are like this. It is pitiful. If there is a systematic injustice occurring, an erosion of freedom, a blatant coersion, we ALL suffer, not just the guy being detained, harassed, or molested.
  18. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Exactly. And it can't be repeated often enough.
  19. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    It doesn't help that BDO encounters are easy for TSA to frame as "But they're just asking questions! They're just TALKING! See, we're switching from patdowns to TALKING!" Too many people will stop there and take that at face value rather than contemplating what happens if the conversation goes south and the BDO declares them to be Osama Junior. People are quick to switch off their brains and go back to American Idol or whatever the distraction-du-jour may be, and "switching from patdowns to 'intelligent' scientific-sounding behavioural profiling" sounds just progressive enough, just active enough, and just conclusive enough to give people the sense of mental closure they need to say "everything's okay now, they're moving forward and refining their process" and switch their focus to a more comfortable topic.

    Unfortunately it's always harder for "average" people to grasp theoretical or abstract principles like liberty and the need to protect rights even when there isn't a (perceived) immediate and extreme threat than it is for them to deal with those threats on a (oft-oversimplified) case-by-case basis when they come up. "This BDO interview violates my right to unmolested transit through the navigable airspace as a citizen of the US" is tougher to wrap one's head around than "oh, that TSO just cupped my balls."

    I think the "picture your children, picture your elderly/war-veteran parents, picture your spouse" arguments help drive the point home to some, but not all, of the AFS crowd. Those who've seen the videos or heard the reports of the gropedowns but are still wishy-washy on whether they're okay with it are easy to reach that way. The ones who respond with disbelief and think "there's no way it can actually be that bad" are the ones that will need other rhetorical tactics applied to them to convince them. Hopefully rhetorical tactics will work, as it would be faster than waiting for them all to wind up on the business end of a pair of grope-happy TSO hands.
  20. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

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