New Reason-Rupe poll: 55% say we've given up too much liberty and privacy

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by lkkinetic, Sep 1, 2011.

  1. lkkinetic

    lkkinetic Original Member

    A new Reason-Rupe poll, discussed in these two posts, reveals some interesting results:

    http://reason.com/blog/2011/09/01/reason-rupe-sept-11-anniversar
    http://reason.com/blog/2011/09/01/americans-believe-that-benefit

    High level summary: 55% of Americans polled believe that we've given up too much liberty and privacy in the name of security ... but 81% say that today's security measures are inconvenient, but generally worth it.

    This means that, mathematically, some of those people in the 81% believe security measures are generally worth it, but that we've given up too much liberty and privacy in return. Whaaat? Cognitive dissonance, hello ...

    While this poll does show the sheeple result, it does still show some core beliefs in the civil liberty values that animate our activity here at TUG (as well as concerns about privacy and surveillance more generally, a concern that is top of my mind).

    I propose that we coordinate a Congressional, presidential, airline letter-writing campaign over the next week to commemorate the 9-11 anniversary, making sure to acquaint our correspondents with the results of this poll. Since Celtic Whisper is the rhetoric whisperer, he may have some language in the arsenal already, and I'd be glad to help.
     
  2. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    The primary issue is that 81% of those polled are complete (expletive deleted) sheep.
     
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  3. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    I will gladly write more letters, though I've written so many already. I wish I had some hope, but history shows us that people are easily led when you pull the fear card. I've quoted monsters in the past; here's another one:

    "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country."
    -- Herman Göring at the Nuremberg trials
     
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  4. INK

    INK Original Member

    I did not give up anything. They took it.
     
  5. DeafBlonde

    DeafBlonde Original Member

    Boy, howdy, INK! You are absolutely spot on! (as usual) I do not recall ever having been asked to vote on this rediculous scop-n-grope procedure. I do believe that it would have been voted down with a resounding "NOT NO, BUT (expletive deleted) NO!!" if they had described exactly what our choices would be for the "enhanced security" (i.e., either 1) let one of us oogle your naked bod while we're holed up in a secret room, or 2) let us feel you up in the most intimate way, making you feel like a common criminal. Your choice...)

    This is what makes me so mad about the whole thing. This government abuse of its citizens has got to stop!!!
     
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  6. jtodd

    jtodd Original Member

    +1
     
  7. FriendlySkies

    FriendlySkies Member

    Like the ones interviewed in this video?

     
  8. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    poll not worth much. most of those folks probably don't fly. I'd like a sampling restricted to folks who fly and see if those numbers move. See if there is a correlation between getting groped and disagreeing that such measures are worth the sacrifice... Easy to say it's worth it when someone ELSE is paying.
     
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  9. INK

    INK Original Member

    When I talk with others like me, those that travel all of the time with their work, there is almost a complete and universal revulsion to the practices and procedures of the TSA. A second group that may be less traveled, but are equally repulsed, are the well-informed and includes many people here that seek to know as much as possible as the processes in which they will come in contact on a regular basis. These two groups will not be highly represented in any poll, but it is the two groups that will be most informed and capable of forming a knowledgeable opinion. I have no idea how many of us that there are, but as a segment of the population it is small. But as we hear these days, we have "skin in the game."

    Another group with an interest is the legions of government workers whose ability to pay rent and buy groceries is affected by the continuation of the program. We can count these with some accuracy. It is the sum of TSA and airport cops, a group numbering approximately 100,000. Again a very small percentage of the general population and not highly represented. They generally disagree with the groups above.

    So, if they poll the general population, they are polling the uninformed, people that never or seldom travel by air. They poll those that get their information from news sources that that try to present both sides, but never seem to give enough information from either side to make reasonable and intelligent decisions, even from those that are capable of such. Most people are clueless. If you do not think so, go to the mall, WalMart, a sports event, a concert, even family get-togethers or any place people gather and observe. These are the people that answer polls.

    I continue to contend that there are only two groups that consistently support the policies of the TSA: selected government employees and those that do not yet have enough information. Our responsibility is to inform people honestly. We do not do that by talking to each other here, but we need to be here for mutual encouragement and knowledge. We have to patiently teach the unknowing with credible information unembellished with emotion and hype. Most people are smart enough to get it. Then, when they are polled, they can answer from knowledge and not emotion. It is a continuing work that will not be done quickly. Persistence will win. Eventually.
     
  10. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Alas, I wish I could agree with this. Most of my friends and family are clueless. Deliberately, willfully clueless. They travel often, they love travel, and they issue a collective shrug. "What's the big deal?" "So you have to put up with somebody touching you, just steel yourself for it and pretend you're somewhere else." (No, I'm not kidding; quoting someone close to me.) "I've never been bothered." "I have no issues [sic] with the TSA." This cohort of people includes the well educated (hyper educated, in fact), the been-around-the-block, the no-excuse-for-not-knowing-better, the supposedly aware, and, significantly, professional journalists. As I've noted so often, they simply don't give a (expletive deleted) as long as it happens to someone else. Or, in the case of some of the journalists, they're just fine with the abusive procedures; "anything to keep us safe!"

    Been there, done that. And continue to. But at this point, it's more because I simply enjoy being a gadfly. I know these people won't get it until it happens to them. As Mike puts it, "one grope at a time. We'll convince them one grope at a time." Of course, it might take 20 years, but c'est la vie.
     
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  11. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    I was just talking to a friend about this last week, a very well educated and well read person. She continues to fly when she can afford to and says she doesn't care what the TSA does to her just as long as she can take her trip. However, I don't think she has been groped yet.

    If the scope of the gropes has been cut back so that contact with the genitals is verboten, I believe we might have a bigger struggle ahead of us.
     
  12. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    Unfortunately my mother is among the ranks of the AFS mindset, even after I'd given her copies of a few of my government letters.

    The other day we were talking about my planning a roadtrip to New Orleans and Houston and got to talking about other options like taking the train. I said I should look into it - I checked it out in the case of going to Tampa (a trip that life, work and real estate wound up cancelling for us) and it was totally impractical but I hadn't really checked into Chicago-->Nawlins-->Houston-->Chicago. She asked "Does Southwest fly there?" I replied "Probably, but that would entail interacting with the TSA." The reply?

    "Oh, well. It's just once and you can save time and money and just be safe that once."

    I think I need to work on my ability to convey to people that not only do these blue-shirted subhuman wastes of carbon infringe upon our rights, they don't offer any goddamn safety in exchange for it.

    Garg.
     
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  13. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    And it's completely because the true issues are obscured:

    the true invasiveness
    the absolute lack of true security
    that attitude of "well, if this is what I have to go through to go on my trip, well I'll do it."

    It boggles my mind because instead of seeing TSA as the hindrance, TSA is viewed as the hurdle. The trip is the goal, and the public has their eye on the wrong prize.

    A good friend who travels as much as most of us for work recently asked me "what the big deal" was. After all, he only encounters the scanners "a few times" and you "just go through them." So I sent him links to the TSA's versions of the images, John Wild's images, the 100% failure of scanning technology, and the story about Rolando Negrin.

    Interestingly he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.
     
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  14. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    Denial is a beautiful thing. :rolleyes:
     
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  15. darwin76

    darwin76 Original Member

    That which has been taken away (not given up, good point Ink) hasn't even produced any tangible security improvements.

    What we have is security theater, not security.

    This cat and mouse game can be played forever and real security will still never be achieved through gate procedure. All it can do is bring further abuse of the rights of law abiding passengers. I fear what will happen once a terrorist (expletive deleted) takes the next logical step after the underwear and hides contraband in an anus or a vagina, just as the drug smugglers have been doing on board aircraft for decades.

    Will we see the day where DYWTFT is contingent on a single/double cavity search or an internal X-ray?
     
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  16. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    They don't even have to go that far if they can find a SPOTnik willing to take a bribe.
     
  17. RB

    RB Founding Member

    Even easier would to hire on to an airline, airport, or even TSA and introduce contraband directly.
     
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