Discussion in 'Civil Rights & Privacy' started by FetePerfection, Sep 15, 2011.
Mike, please delete this thread, found the other one.
I posted comment at the WSJ. Going over to Reuters article now.
Oh, they'll come for us soon ... but there'll be no one left to stand up for us, except maybe the curling fans.
Some more coverage:
Wall Street Journal
A comment from the USAToday article from one Marvin Fant (he's quoting a skeptical comment from earlier in the thread at the top):
MARVIN FANT3:04 PM on September 16, 2011melee4012:47 PM on September 16, 2011
"Just someone using yet another situation as an excuse to undermine our American liberties."
YOU'RE ONE OF THE REASONS WHY OUR SECURITY IS NOT THE BEST IN THE WORLD (ITS ONE OF THE BEST BUT NOT THE BEST) BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHINE ABOUT SO CALLED LIBERTIES INSTEAD OF OVERALL SAFETY
Have you seen the damage a brush or a rock can do? Can I have a smurf for a demonstation
I know you'll all be surprised to know that I'm not a big football fan. However. However.
Obviously I have huge issues with the level of security at airports - normalizing surveillance, normalizing the notion that it's proper for government to require a passenger to agree to be sexually assaulted or radiated before they can fly.
I truly worry about moving pat downs, metal detectors (body scanners too?) to other areas of our public life because they threaten our ability to participate in almost everything that is public and social. Think schools, courthouses, football games, going out to clubs, some hotels, etc. It will only expand - if we let it.
This NFL business doesn't really bother me in itself, let me give my reasons:
1. This doesn't seem to be anything like the TSA patdown.
2. There's nothing like coercive atmosphere of the airport, at least at most stadiums I've been too.
3. It's a purely optional activity. Nobody has to go to any football game.
4. I'm willing to accept that stadiums know what is dangerous in their particular venues.
5. Basically I think that fans don't mind being searched, much like I never minded the rather perfunctory searches at rock concerts I used to go to back in the 1920s.
The two concerns I have are:
6. If TSA is subcontracted into this, the scope of the searches may intensify.
7. The searches may expand to other areas. Malls come to mind, but their could be others.
Done and done.
The best way to do these things is to "Report" the thread by clicking at the bottom of your post. That will alert all of us, and eventually someone will get to it.
The USAToday poll is running strongly against this. It's currently 84% "No" to 16% "Yes".
A brief review of the comments is decidedly against these pat downs with a few anti-TSA rants thrown in for good measure.
Oh, yeah, the American public loves the TSA, alright. I have to wonder if even they believe the bs they spout.
I take a bit of an exception to a couple of your points, 2 and 3.
The pat down is coercive if your admission to the stadium is dependent upon submitting.
The third point sounds a great deal like "if you don't like it, don't fly." Vacations to destinations that one needs to reach by air are purely optional activities also.
I totally agree with #6.
The local TV news last night interviewed a couple of individuals who asked, to the effect, "when are we going to have to submit to a pat down to get into the mall or the movie theater?" Only one person thought it was a good idea.
Remember back when every single person they interviewed said something along the lines of, "I'll do whatever they ask, just to be safe!"?
Sadly life is a dead end. Sooner or later we all die regardless of what we eat, drink, and do in an effort to keep the body going. The state is not our nice nanny who protects us from every evil. It can't be and when people demand the state protect them from their own stupidity (i.e. using a lit match to see how much gas is left in the tank) it often turns into a nightmare.
If these types of searches come to malls and other retail shopping centers, in-person retail shopping will die for all but perishable items (such as food) and large bulky heavy items that are not practical to ship. Online shopping will boom. The door-to-door salesman may even make a comeback.
Dude, check out Amazon Prime.
I'm afraid as has been stated earlier if pat downs become the norm for sports events then security types will eye that for their facilities and trickle down will result in malls and other places trying the same kinds of things.
I can only suggest that if you oppose these pat downs you have only one choice and that is to deprive that venue of your business.
Cannot be repeated often enough.
What concerns me the most is this move in the context of the other news reports over the past couple of years alluding to how DHS has been leaning on stadium owners and sports leagues and teams to do this. It's a way for DHS to leverage the fear-based cowardice to increase their activities, their budget, and their raison d'etre. Because that's what bureaucratic agencies do.
To the extent that these are not criminal-style, TSA-style frisks, and that they are part of a private endeavor and not actions on the part of the US federal government, I am not concerned. It's the DHS application of pressure and ability to leverage it that raises my awareness, concerns, and hackles.
I would only add, they are not TSA-style frisks yet.
There is no one on this board who would have believed ten years ago that we'd be seeing what we're seeing at the airports today. I don't believe most TSOs who hired in 10 years ago (even 5 years ago) would have believed where we are at.
We have already, in a practical sense, lost most of our rights to privacy and transparent justice. The only reason we are not already getting frisked as a condition of entering any 'venue of size' is because right now the government (at all levels) does not have the money for it.
We don't have 'rights' in any meaningful sense if we risk getting bankrupted and put on a no-fly list with no due process or right of appeal in order to exercise those rights. Phil Mocek was a perfect example - the cops lied, evidence was destroyed, he's got a huge legal bill - that's what it takes today to 'exercise' one's rights.
'Security' is an enormous growth industry with unbelievable global potential. The folks with money are onto that, and there's more than enough to persuade the politicians to go along.
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