NYPD Officer Maces Group of Detained Women

Discussion in 'Civil Rights & Privacy' started by Affection, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    You rang? :)

    I rather like the sound of that. Although I refuse to connect any dots between TSA & an abusive deputy NYPD inspector, both are issues that require enthusiastic, spirited resistance.
    Lisa Simeone and DeafBlonde like this.
  2. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    This incident is similar to the sheila lovada (? sp) case where the woman was arrested and jailed by mistake (wrong bench warrant), during which she was, on VIDEO, strip searched forcibly by male deputies at a jail, during the course of which one of them sprayed her in the face with mace while she was down on the ground not resisting.

    I don't get the connection with TSA though. They are violating our civil and constitutional rights in another way, not this one....
  3. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    The TSA's tools of oppression are different but still tools of oppression. There are people here who can tell you about being swarmed and surrounded by TSA clerks when said clerks thought that they were "going to be trouble." There's the infamous DYWTFT (which does occur whether or not you personally train your clerks to use it) and the general leveraging of people's time-crunch situations as a coercive mechanism. There's the psychological impact, at least on some people, of the plexiglas "penalty boxes."

    Just because TSClerks are (thankfully) not given mace, tasers, or other instruments of force, and are generally in no physical shape to brute-force anyone into submission, doesn't mean they haven't found other ways to violate the principles of a free nation in their day-to-day jobs at the airport.

    Also, "stark raving mad fanatics" seems to me a clear attempt at discouragement via discrediting and it will not work. You can claim extremism as much as you like - you have a right to free speech too - but do not expect us to be swayed from the goal that many of us hold that is eviscerating the power and perceived authority of, if not dismantling altogether, the TSA.
    Lisa Simeone likes this.
  4. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    Thank you very much for proving my point. I welcome an honest discussion/debate on the issues. You've established with your own comments that some members are truly fanatical and resort to exaggerated claims to prove their points rather than stick to documented facts.
  5. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Well, FeteP, if you do go to Freedom Plaza in DC, we can finally meet! I'll be there every day.
  6. FetePerfection

    FetePerfection Founding Member Coach

    We'll have our own mini-TUG-DO just like Barbell and I had a few weeks back. I'll keep you posted of my plans - working on flights now.
    barbell likes this.
  7. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    Documented facts like the fact that people have been swarmed and surrounded as an intimidation technique (it has happened)? Documented facts like the fact that TSA clerks-not-officers-not-agents are generally too fat and uncoordinated to overpower people (they are)?

    It's certainly a fact that they're not issued weapons.

    As I said before, you can claim radicalism and extremism all you want - I will not be dissuaded and neither, I think, will any of the rest of us on the anti-TSA side. If anything, accusations of fanaticism are encouragement that our actions are having an impact and TSA is desperate to try to discredit us.
    barbell and Lisa Simeone like this.
  8. Cartoon Peril

    Cartoon Peril Original Member

    Widespread protests are going on in NYC. This is what America is all about. Those who don't like it are free to their opinion. That's part of America too.
    barbell, Lisa Simeone and KrazyKat like this.
  9. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I don't give a damn how you feel about TSA. Nothing is going to change your mind against your will; you have to make that decision all by yourself.

    Criticizing TSA policy is certainly your right, and there are some very valid points to be made. I've never said otherwise. However, I would expect a group of rational adults to debate fairly. Trying to connect the abuses of the NYPD with TSA policy is simply ridiculous. There is no nexus. You do come across as fanatical. If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to debate more intelligently. Otherwise, threads like this brand you. I'm just sharing an opinion. You don't have to agree. But if you ever wonder why Congress Critters and the like don't take you seriously, it's because of arguments like this thread is trying to advance.
  10. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    The actions of the NYPD were outrageous and uncalled for. There needs to be a policy review and disciplinary action taken, to include termination, if justified.
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  11. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    That is not a decision that is ever going to be made. My mind is made up about TSA - the organization must be abolished and disbanded and every last employee working for it must find themselves unemployed and, at least temporarily, facing the very real possibility of their own inability to provide for themselves and their families. That emotional pain and stress is duly-deserved punishment for what they have perpetrated against the people. TSOs deserve unemployment and all the strife that goes along with it.

    Furthermore, once again, just because you claim something is true does not make it so. I suspect I comprehend the written word far better than you think.

    Then those Congresscritters will find themselves likewise out of jobs for their failure to take us seriously. When the "fanatics" (note: Bart's words, not my own) hold the votes, Congress ignores said fanatics at the risk of their own political careers. They disobey and they get fired, that simple. Insubordination to their superiors (i.e. the citizenry) gets them a pink slip. They can hate it all they want but at the end of the day, they don't vote themselves term extensions.

    This next election is going to be a very, very interesting one to watch. Between the constant media exposure of the factual truth that TSA is a worthless organization from top to bottom, the petitions calling for TSA's termination, the constant YouTube exposure of the unjustifiable-under-any-circumstances patdowns (which are based on an SOP that is also unjustifiable under any circumstances no matter how many terrorists it ever catches or how many lives it ever saves, so patdowns performed in accordance with SOP are STILL WRONG), and some high-profile public figures speaking out against it, it's certain to be a hot-button issue on the campaign trail.

    I, for one, intend to vote for whoever has the best chance at dismantling TSA and making sure every AIT device ever deployed in US airports ends up in a scrapyard. Failing that, I intend to vote for whoever promises to make life at TSA as miserable as possible.
  12. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    The woman I mentioned earlier who got similarly maced without cause was not Lovada, it was Lozada... Here's a link to her story (not endorsing the web site, it just happened to have a link..)...

    My cousin was beaten to death by similar types of deputies as those shown here while sobering up on a DUI arrest. It's sad. Monetary penalties are not enough. I think only jail time will get the message to people like this who abuse the power WE give them.
  13. CelticWhisper

    CelticWhisper Founding Member

    I agree. Police departments too often have unwritten "CYA uber alles" policies in place and people are too often willing to take private settlements. Whether the latter is due to greed, confusion/grief, or backroom pressure applied by PD officials is hard to say and probably varies from case to case anyway.

    A few high-profile, precedent-setting court cases brought by people who stand on principle could go a long way to curtail corruption and/or indifference that leads to travesties like this.

    Also, I'm sorry to hear about your cousin. Were you able to see some proper sort of justice served there?
  14. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    Then you are more naive than I thought. TSA, DHS, the body scanner, and the pat down don't have squat to do with the next election. They aren't even teeny tiny little blips that register on any political radar screen.

    The next election is going to be all about where the candidates stand on raising taxes, tax breaks and spending. That's it. Yeah, we'll hear the usual diatribe about all the rice bowl topics, but that's just background noise to see if people like you or me will be dumb enough to swallow that (expletive deleted). It's the economy, economy and it's the economy. TSA doesn't factor.

    Vote any way you like. If you're going to vote according to where the candidate stands on TSA, then you're just pissing in a windstorm.

    Don't get too wet.
  15. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with Bart. The TSA -- which is actually part of the much larger issue of the National Security State -- won't be an issue in the election. And it doesn't matter who gets elected anyway. It doesn't matter. Neither party will do (expletive deleted) about the TSA. No candidate will do anything about it. Whoever gets elected will simply continue the insane "War on Terror" and the constant hyping of a state of fear that enables it. Bush started it, Obama has continued (and increased) it, and whoever the next person is will do likewise.

    I'm sorry, but the only thing that will change this is massive civil resistance. And I just don't see it happening.

    Then again, the economy's going to completely collapse, so who knows what will happen. There may be very few airlines left and very few people flying.
    barbell likes this.
  16. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    I'm so sorry, nachtnebel. Horrible. This, of course, happens all the time in this country, but usually to people who are under the middle-class radar.
  17. Bart

    Bart Original Member

    It's a political checklist mentality that crosses party lines. The box that has been checked is that there's airport security in place. That's it. No follow up questions. No need to go beyond the simple fact that there's a process in place. If anyone is foolish enough to screw with it, then that person will be forever branded as the politician who put America at risk. It is cruelly unfair, but that's how the Game is played in Big League Politics.

    While we may agree on this political aspect, where we disagree is that some of you believe there's some sort of power play going on. I believe Mr. Pistole is trying to fix the program. He has a lot of inertia to overcome. In my brief 20+ years working with security programs, that's the nature of the beast. How well will he succeed is anybody's guess. He has a lot of internal resistance to overcome because TSA started off on a risk avoidance approach. Risk management is a completely different animal and while many may pay it lip service, very few truly understand it.
  18. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    But Bart, if Pistole is trying to fix things, then why did he institute the gropes? I'm sorry, but something is twisted in this guy's psyche. He himself has admitted that he, as a law enforcement officer, and all other cops, aren't legally allowed to do the kind of searches the TSA is doing. I've read/listened to so many interviews with this guy by now. His religious zeal is also a part of the picture.
    nachtnebel, TravelnMedic and barbell like this.
  19. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    nachtnebel this is awful, and my condolences for your loss. Incidents like this happen far more often than people realize. It's a travesty that police far too often think they give us rights, when it's actually the other way around.
  20. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    I agree to some extent. If the Republicans take power, will they pass Ron Paul's ADA act? Or, to put it another way, will the people who gave us the Patriot act, the DHS, and TSA curtail them in any significant way? A lot of money, hundreds of billions, are behind the push to keep security ratcheted up. That goes beyond party lines. Not a slam dunk.

    And yet....And yet, Bart is wrong in saying the TSA abuses are below the radar screen. What they have done has caused a big and cumulative stir, and those most affected are the political class, the writing class, the talking class, the influential class... TSA has become a national and internationally despised laughing stock. The only way this goes away and goes below the radar is if TSA changes. If they quit assaulting sexual organs of pax, quit the bone head invasions. That might happen. But the political heat HAS been turned up.

    You don't get entire states taking up legislation against the TSA if it is truly "below the radar" politically. Not a chance.

    As for that d*kless wonder Pistole, what are you smoking? The very guy that authorized one of the worst civil rights abuses and desecrations of the Constitution in modern times, he's going to fix things? He could make a good start by resigning.
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