Lawsuit Shoshana Hebshi: Some Real Shock and Awe: Racially Profiled and Cuffed in Detroit

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by Lisa Simeone, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    It takes a lot to surprise me, but that would surprise me - if for no other reason than a swat team was involved (real LEOs). LEOs don't like TSA that much to begin with, and TSA putting LEOs in a situation that leaves the LEO with egg on their faces (eggs filled with liability goodness) wouldn't go over well.
    mikemey likes this.
  2. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    Even though LEOs don't like TSA, TSA plays them like pawns.

    I wouldn't be one bit surprised if there were some, "You could be a hero! Do this for your country!" bs coaxing that went into it. That's exactly what they do at checkpoints (I've seen it first hand), and eventually the LEO wises up. That they fall for it so often is both humorous and infuriating. Of course, this situation may be different since apparently SWAT and FBI were involved. I would certainly hope that those people think things through.
    rockon and Lisa Simeone like this.
  3. Fisher1949

    Fisher1949 Original Member Coach

    Yeah, but the comment made me laugh.:)
    They also don't have a complete water and sewer system anymore either.
  4. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

    I've been to entirely peaceful, non-violent demonstrations full of mostly old veterans with only a smattering of younger people -- I'm talking like 400 protestors total -- where the police presence was off the charts. Unbelievable. Riot squads, SWAT teams, mounted police, snipers, unidentifiable guys in camo gear with face masks and huge machine guns (or whatever they're technically called -- I don't know the proper gun names -- they're just (expletive deleted) enormous), helicopters. You can't believe it unless you've seen it. It's scary. As it's meant to be.

    I can easily believe the FBI/DHS/SWAT teams just stormed onto that plane without any rational thought. There were frigging fighter jets scrambling, for pete's sake.
    Elizabeth Conley and nachtnebel like this.
  5. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    They get to dress up and play soldier for an hour or so. Without even running the risk of getting fired upon. Great fun.
  6. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    Well, you're probably right. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt -- but in some cases maybe I shouldn't.
  7. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    Shoshana Hebshi was interviewed by the NY Times:

  8. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Just plain sickening. I hope the ACLU digs out MILLIONS from these clue-less and evil human excrements. It has to hurt so nobody will try this again. The prohibitions against doing this in this way for these reasons are what, decades old. Everyone in law enforcement is supposed to know this. There will be no qualified immunity and I hope the female guard loses everything she has.
    Elizabeth Conley likes this.
  9. DeafBlonde

    DeafBlonde Original Member

    No, I disagree. She did not make the decision to strip-search Hebshi, someone else did. I hope whoever it was, looses everything (s)he has! If the female guard/police officer (whatever) had refused to do it, one of the males would have been "forced" to carry out the "order to strip-search." Thank God that it didn't go down that way. :eek:
  10. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    The guard knew or should have known that this was wrong and illegal. She doesn't get a pass. Everyone in this chain of events should lose their shirt.

    And if the male guards had done the strip search, this has already been ruled illegal by many federal courts and would have generated even more massive outrage than there is even now. this would not have been a bad outcome, imo.
  11. rockon

    rockon Original Member

    I think the 'outrage' is limited to a polite 'tsk-tsk' and a head shake by most of America.

    The 'outrage' would have been slightly greater if she had been white. Most people, if they read the story at all, are titillated to know what the strip search is about, nothing more.

    Doesn't matter what the courts say - rogue agencies like this continue to disregard the courts with impunity every day. One hopes that someone, somewhere will make a case and take it to court. In the end, if the case ever goes to court, wrists get slapped, taxpayers pay through the nose both to defend government agents who broke the law and to pay for the wrongdoing.

    Small example: there are federal laws/regulations (hah!) governing public input on certain occasions. TSA ignored that requirement when it rammed Chertoff's gold mine, sorry, the NoS into place. They were called on it - and, big whoop! - told to hold the comment period now with the caveat that no matter what the outcome of it is, the public concerns will be documented and ignored.
  12. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

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  13. DeafBlonde

    DeafBlonde Original Member

    Yes, she should have known that it was wrong on an ethical level (I think that's why she appologized to Hebshi). The courts will have to decide whether or not this was an illegal (i.e., unconstitutional) search. They (airport police, FBI, DHS, or whoever ordered the strip searches) may have had a legal basis to do so, but that does not make it right on an ethical or moral level.

    Yes, having a male "guard" (or were they airport police?) do the strip search would have garnered more public outrage, but as you stated, the outcome (legal outcome, that is) would be much the same, as rockon stated: slap on the risk, taxpayer-funded settlement, yada, yada, yada...

    Edit to add: The outcome for Hebshi would have been a lot worse if the male guards had done the strip search...a lot worse as in a lot more traumatizing.
  14. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    Is a jury or judge ever going to weigh in on this?
  15. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    I would ask the same as I thought she had refused to press any charges. Could an organization such as the ACLU - and I believe she was in contact with them - bring this to court without her?
  16. rockon

    rockon Original Member

    I suspect there are folks behind the scenes putting pressure on both her and the other pax to make sure this never happens.

    I don't know the immigration status of everyone in her family, but she's clearly intelligent enough to realize that protesting what happened to her in a court of 'law' could result in serious retaliatory consequences for the rest of her family. I wouldn't be surprised if the other pax feel the same way.

    Seems like there's enough information already out there for the ACLU to move ahead without her explicit co-operation, but who knows if they can or will?
  17. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    what legal basis possibly exists for what they did? None. They are completely exposed on this.
  18. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    They had absolutely no legal basis to do this. The courts have been very clear about what type of search can be conducted on a suspect in this situation -- it is called a Terry Stop and is conducted only for the safety of the officers to ensure that you have no weapons concealed on you. It sounds as though a Terry Stop was indeed done on the tarmac at the foot of the stairs. Lacking a warrant, any further search was unconstitutional.
  19. She wasn't even under arrest, was she? Handcuffs, strip/cavity search, detention in a cell, fingerprints, interrogation, and yet she wasn't even under arrest, she was not read her Miranda rights, and she doesn't even seem to have been acting "suspicious" or identified as one of the "suspicious" people. I've known this was unconstitutional for so long I don't even remember where I learned it. If this is okay now, it confirms that we are living in post-constitutional America.
    Lisa Simeone and nachtnebel like this.
  20. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    What bother me most is the memory of EPIC'S case, where the judges claiming scope n' grope was "reasonable." I think we should have put those judges on a thorazine drip immediately. They were obviously bat stuff crazy - but what are citizens to conclude? Do we still have a judicial branch? Do they care one flip for the U.S. Constitution?

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