Some public opinion surprises (pleasant ones!)

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by lkkinetic, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. lkkinetic

    lkkinetic Original Member

    Glenn Greenwald's new column highlights some results of a Pew poll that indicate that public opinion is shifting more toward protection of civil liberties relative to opinion over the past decade. For the first time in the past decade, more than half of those polled believe that it is not necessary to give up civil liberties in order to curb terrorism.

    The post, and the link to the Pew discussion of the poll, are both informative and at least somewhat heartening!
     
  2. RB

    RB Founding Member

    This poll is promising. I don't think most people alive now have any foundation upon which to build on the loss of rights. Now that some are seeing what a police state looks like and some have experienced the TSA Statsi for what it really is eyes are starting to open. And make no mistake, it's not only TSA we should be concerned about but every instance of surveillance of any kind should be a concern.
     
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  3. myadvice

    myadvice Original Member

    We have advanced technologically to the point where information is everywhere. Unfortunately, information once captured can live on forever and be used in ways to help someone make negative decisions that affects us personally in some way. We generally have no rights to challenge the accuracy of this information. In many cases we don't even have to be told that this information is out there.

    It's sad but we have more rights concerning our credit scores than we do with most other information. At least on a credit report bad information can be challenged and even extremely harmful information such as bankruptcy can not remain on report for more than ten years.
     
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  4. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    This is encouraging! Thanks for sharing.

    I find this quote to be telling:

     
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  5. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    Wow. That's so true.

    Maybe there's hope.
     
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  6. barbell

    barbell Coach Coach

    There's been some active posting lately on the We Won't Fly Facebook page about the internal psyops going on to keep the fear stoked up in spite of the public opinion we see exhibited here.

    This discussion is more germane to a different thread, so I'll be posting some thoughts there in the next couple of days.

    It is quite clear seeing these numbers that the unhinged elements of our government are running amok.

    I have always sat in awe at the simplicity and brilliance of the Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. How forward thinking the Founders must have been to protect both freedom of the press and speech so that tidbits such as this one can come out. It's because of that beautifully written document that we are able to figure out the nuance around the other pieces of the whole Constitution. It's amazing to me that in counterpoint to the Federalists were the anti-Federalists (of whom I recently learned of their writings) who argued against passage of the Bill of Rights because they felt the government would be too easily able to make carve outs. Turns out both sides had perfect arguments.
     
  7. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    I guess it depends on how you describe 'unhinged'. I don't see it as 'unhinged', I see it as a calculated ploy to keep the powers they've given to themselves in the name of 9/11.
     
  8. Elizabeth Conley

    Elizabeth Conley Original Member

    I agree. It's very good to know that almost half of Americans have enough common sense and common decency to realize that when you're attacked, it may be because you've somehow provoked the attack.

    Not necessarily of course, but very possibly.

    When I mention to people that we may have stomped on Islam a time or two, people leap down my throat. "How could you! How dare you! Of all the nerve!"

    Well it's not really such an audacious idea. I think we should consider being less of an international pain in the posterior for a while. It would be nice if we didn't start any more wars until we had cash to spend again.
     
  9. lkkinetic

    lkkinetic Original Member

    Good call! I really recommend reading the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers together; very illuminating and thought-provoking, and I agree with you that both sides had good arguments. You can buy volumes containing both together. My Anti-Federalist Papers volume is an old abridged version edited by Herbert Storing, although you can also get a 3-volume complete version too.
     
  10. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    *yawn*

    *yawn*

    I hear the sound of knees jerking. Please excuse me if I don't buy the looney left drivel. America is not perfect -- no country is -- but we are not the root of evil in the world.

    When I was a kid, we had only recently defeated Germany and Japan, and Russia was trying to take over Europe. The Berlin airlift, Berlin wall, and the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia all occurred before I was out of junior high school. Today the Soviet bear is gone, bankrupt, dissolved. I never dreamed that it would happen in my lifetime.

    Where would we be without the U.S.? How's your German? Or Russian? The unfortunate Japanese in the internment camps would have been even less fortunate if they had been forced to learn their ancestral language.

    Some 0f these nut jobs who whine about all the wrong American has done should emigrate to Iran or Saudi Arabia and keep whining -- see how long their heads remain attached. You'll have about 60 second to reflect on it after the sword drops.

    It's taken almost 20 years to get the ball rolling, and I'd question whether it's all been by design, but the Middle East and northern Africa are now changing: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran (revolution is ripe, it's mostly a question of when), Syria (Assad's number is up, he just doesn't realize it yet), Egypt, Tunisia, Libya. How much of this would have happened without the U.S. and its allies?

    In engineering we do a "lessons learned" review and move on to the next project. America needs to do the same.
     
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  11. DeafBlonde

    DeafBlonde Original Member

    I agree with you, Mike. That kind of attitude is akin to blaming the rape victim: "Well, she must have provoked the attack in some way. She must have been wearing [red lipstick, tight clothes, revealing clothes, scanty clothes]." Circle one.
     
  12. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The Crusades ended > 200 years before Columbus found North America. I still don't feel any guilt for the slavery that occurred in the U.S. The problem happened and was fixed well before my lifetime. Once I deal with that, then I'll consider taking on the guilt of my late uncle Christopher. Then perhaps we can talk about the Crusades.
     
  13. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    I would like to be heartened. I'll squeeze whatever drops I can from this. But I maintain is that all it would take is one attack, whether real or false flag, no matter how small or large, no matter if 50 people got killed or no one got killed, and people would fall right into line. The overreaction would be ramped up tenfold. I truly fear this.
     
  14. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    do you get the feeling that the anti federalist's fears have borne out? I sure do. every time I see someone get groped.
     
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  15. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Yet that document has force only if sufficient people read it, understand it, defend it against the federal monster and the promises it dangles before the idiots, and refuse to accept the self-interested mal-interpretations of it by the courts. It might as well be Hamurabi's code otherwise. Ultimately, useless. There is no question we're back to government by edict, now in practical terms. IMO, the game is up when those entrusted with the constitution ignore the bill of rights and think there's nothing at all wrong with strip searches and full body gropes if the violators have the right intentions. All of their education and legal learning have been for nothing. The whole earth would benefit if these people just ignited and vanished.
     
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  16. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Maybe. Or maybe people will realize it isn't the end of the world. just like 9/11 wasn't. The shock value in the future will be much less.
     
  17. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    It may be cheaper for our military to just stay home and fight. That's where we're headed, IMO. DHS has already fingered those they consider undesirables.
     
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  18. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    In times past, America was a "shining city on a hill". Or close enough. But nothing human stays flat. It either improves or worsens. And this country has worsened. It, through its corrupt government, now represents a threat to much of the world.

    This will happen to the power of the US as well. I look forward to it. The US was a great place to be back when it was a backwater and not powerful at all. It was not Power that made this a special country. Power has ruined it.

    That water is loooooong past under the bridge. What matters is how we got off track and how to regain the natural virtues this country and its people once had. I would welcome harder times if it meant the citizens regained a love of liberty, of self respect, of respect for their fellows, and lost the abject fear they now cower under, their self-imposed servitude, their stupidity, and their foolishness.

    These are NOT positive developments for the US. All of those are pro Islamic anti-Israel forces. Or haven't you noticed what the crowds did to the israalis in Cairo?
     
  19. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    Baloney. It still is a "shining city on a hill".

    The U.S. isn't ruined. The rest of that paragraph isn't worth debating, given that if it's not ruined.

    "it's people once had" -- what a bunch of bull :trash:!

    It's an Islamic part of the world, what do you expect? Conversion to Catholicism and a tithe to America?

    You're free to hide in your closet & mope. I choose not to.
     
  20. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    I see no reason for the snide personal comment, as if by it you would gain some advantage. We agree on the problems, disagree on the scope and what it will take to remedy them. Fair enough.
     

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