TSA tells disable Marine to remove prosthetic legs

Discussion in 'Aviation Passenger Security in the USA' started by jtodd, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Doober

    Doober Original Member

  2. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    I am simply infuriated about this. Can somebody capture the two articles so that they and the pictures don't disappear?
  3. RB

    RB Founding Member

    TSA has been dishonest in past events so TSA and its spokesholes have no credibility and there is no reason to accept TSA's accounting of events as true.

    Ask yourself this. Would TSA lie? I think the answer is clearly yes and Boggy Bob is one of the least honest TSA employees out there.
  4. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Are there any that are "more honest" within the ranks of blue-clad (expletive deleted)?
  5. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    In the interest of being honest, my son says he sees the Marine's right leg, with prosthetic, pulled way up with this thigh apparently resting on the arm of the wheelchair. While I can't see the device itself, I can see a the sole of a shoe in back of the screener's leg.

    So why is the Marine's leg pulled into such an awkward position? (You can tell he is struggling by the look on his face.) Is it so the screener can get his hand up into the guy's crotch? Or is it because he is either putting the prosthesis back on or preparing to take it off? I can see no reason for any amputee to have to assume such an uncomfortable position in order to go through screening.
  6. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I think this is a habit by the individual in question, where he pulls his right foot up into his lap. If you watch the other video footage of them at the spring training game, he has it pulled up in a similar fashion. I too was having trouble seeing that in the beginning. I could be wrong, but I think this is a personal habit of the individual, not necessarily something they asked him to do.
  7. RB

    RB Founding Member

    I see you didn't comment on the TSA version of events. Did your minders tell you TSA types to clam up?
    Caradoc likes this.
  8. Monica47

    Monica47 Original Member

    Yesterday I read an article about this event in I believe Business Week online. There were two comments at the end of the article. One was from our very own Fischer and the other comment was from someone who said he is an amputee and EVERY TIME he flies he is ordered to take off his prosthesis and they run it through the X-ray and then swab it. The TSA claims you don't have to remove a prosthesis and yet you hear these types of stories over and over again. I'm beginning to think this is similar to the "you can't video in the secure area" - the TSA knows that isn't true but say so anyway - same with someone with a prosthesis.
  9. RB

    RB Founding Member

    TSA screeners have proven beyond a doubt that screeners are neither trainable or able to perform screenings according to TSA's SOP. Besides I will take the word of an active duty Marine over a TSA employee any day.
    Caradoc and DeafBlonde like this.
  10. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I have no more information than they put out at the blog. I would love to see them release the video for all to see, but I believe the video is owned by PHX, not TSA (that is a guess on my part). What else would I add?

    Edit to add: TSA has told me nothing more than be professional, and don't disseminate SSI.
  11. Caradoc

    Caradoc Original Member

    Given what we've all seen from PHX in the form of Stacey Armato's video, I find that statement not just difficult, but impossible to believe.

    And for the latter, if "be professional and don't disseminate SSI is the extent of your TSA "training," it explains much as to the public image of the TSA - being a bunch of liars, thieves, thugs, and Keystone Kops-style complete friggin' idiots.
  12. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    If PHX does own the video, TSA can't release it without their consent (there are several instances of this from the past), however, this does not mean that the video will not be released at some point.

    As for the "be professional and don't disseminate SSI" statement, it was a direct response to whether I was given instructions to "clam up".
  13. RB

    RB Founding Member

    I think it is a valid point to compare what happened to Stacey Armato at the hands of TSA including one TSA employee of at least TSM level management who stood by and did nothing to end the abuse. There is no question that the lady was put in the cage and held hostage by TSA employees for an extended period of time. Detained illegally and abused by the same crowd of TSA thugs that are accused of abusing a Marine.

    Tell me West, who would you believe?
  14. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I believe that the Marine had a bad experience, I think that the situation could have been handled better with regards to the Marine standing and walking (which according to the release was his choice to do) - I would never be able to stand by and not assist someone having difficulty walking (especially someone that I have a soft spot for in the first place, such as kids or military members). As for the removal, therein lies the rub. You have a source (reportedly not the Marine himself), that indicates it happened, and at least 2 TSOs (both former military members as well) that indicate he was never asked to remove them, and theat he did not remove them. One thing that really bothers me, is that the Marine himself did not file a complaint, and as far as I can see, has not come out on the story publicly (especially if he is the kind of guy that just wants to be left alone or didn't feel like it was a big deal, or if he is in the process of filing the complaint and someone jumped the gun on him) I would prefer that he be able to determine what course this had taken, based upon his wishes, not someone elses. It is a morass at best, and by not releasing the video, I think that TSA/PHX are opening themselves up to questions. My opinion is that the prosthetic removal did not happen, but it is merely a supposition based on what I have been given. My other opinion is that it was a crappy experience for the Marine in question, and that is not what is supposed to happen and should never be acceptable to anyone working for TSA. I reserve the ability to change my mind based on new information coming available, but that is always the case.

    What happened to Stacey was terrible as well. That whole scenario should not have taken any longer than a few minutes to resolve. Even with liquids testing on everything she carried, if the crew had followed SOP, it would not have taken more than a few minutes to resolve and clear her.
  15. RB

    RB Founding Member

    But the PHX crew did not follow SOP in Stacey's case and apparently no one was disciplined including the TSA Suit who stood by and allowed the events to happen for over an hour. Even if the Marine was screened properly, which I doubt, anyone can point to the case of Stacey and show with proof that PHX screeners violated a person, TSA covered up for it by saying procedures were followed and no one should expect the public to believe something bad didn't happen in this case.

    Without hard proof I can never believe TSA's accounting of events due to the clear cases of abusive acts by TSA and then TSA HQ putting out press releases or other media information that are clearly no true.
  16. Rugape

    Rugape Original Member

    I can understand that position quite well. Technically speaking (according to what I have read) the basic SOP was followed, just not in a very timely manner in the Stacey case. According to what I have read, technically speaking, the SOP was followed in the case of the Marine, and in a *relatively* timely fashion, as there was an attempt at the AIT, then the screening required for completion following it. I can see where someone would base their opinions on what they have experienced in the past, and seen/read about in the past - we all do it. In this case, based on my experiences, and the way that things are supposed to go, and the hard charging attitude of most people that I know from the Marine Corps, the account by TSA in this case is completely in line with what I have seen thousands of times. Could the folks there have done a better job handling the situation? Most likely, but then, we have the benefit of hindsight to examine it better at this point. I think the folks could have communicated better, maybe even encouraged the Marine to stay in the chair (I will do that in a heartbeat if the person has trouble standing up), they could have talked a bit more, they could have helped him while they were attempting the AIT - all of these are things that should be discussed and acted upon to help prevent this from happening in the future. The problem with accounts like this, is even if the entire video is released, you don't have audio (I know, I would be all for us wearing button cams and mics on the floor at all times, but I don't see that coming about any time soon). Without that audio, it will always degenerate into some form of "they said, I said", so getting the entire truth of the situation is nigh on impossible. The TSOs could have been the most professional and polite and even buddy buddy with the Marine, they could have been huge knuckleheads that got absolutely nothing right and coerced the Marine into trying the AIT. With the info I have, I don't think the removal actually happened, and was not requested, but they could have done a better job of helping this passenger through the process.

    I hear you on the hard proof, and if I had my way, the video would be posted, and the TSOs would all wear button cams and audio recorders, but I am not going to hold my breath on any of that happening at this point.
  17. Doober

    Doober Original Member

    The video of this poor man struggling to stand brings tears to one's eyes. You can't really see him in the WBI but the thought of the TSA even making the suggestion to him to attempt to stand in that infernal machine is an abmonination.

  18. jtodd

    jtodd Original Member

    What I can glean from this discussion, and the statement that "SOP" was followed, is that the following are SOP:

    1. Harassing citizens
    2. Threatening them with delays if they don't go through the nude-o-scopes
    3. If called out about any of the above, lie.
  19. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Well I agree with Rugape's statement of "where's the Marine's statement", in principle, that principle gets trumped beyond application by what the man's escort said, as quoted by Doober. They humiliated that man beyond reason. F*k the SOP.
    Doober likes this.
  20. RB

    RB Founding Member

    You say SOP was followed in the Armato case.

    Is it TSA SOP to detain a person?

    As a former military police would you state based upon your training that putting a person in a locked enclosure for over an hour a detention?

    Is there a TSA Procedure to screen breast milk and not use the xray as requested by the traveler and if so should it take over an hour to figure out what TSA policy says to do?

    I reject any claim that TSA SOP was followed if any question above is answered with a yes.

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