War crimes for the CIA?

Discussion in 'Civil Rights & Privacy' started by Sunny Goth, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Sunny Goth

    Sunny Goth Original Member Coach

    A Bush official is speaking....

    more at link
    CIA Committed 'War Crimes,' Bush Official Says

    A top adviser to former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned the Bush administration that its use of “cruel, inhuman or degrading” interrogation techniques like waterboarding were “a felony war crime.”

    What’s more, newly obtained documents reveal that State Department counselor Philip Zelikow told the Bush team in 2006 that using the controversial interrogation techniques were “prohibited” under U.S. law — “even if there is a compelling state interest asserted to justify them.”
  2. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Another link within that article leads to a story about Glenn Carle, who participated in the torture of an innocent man at a CIA black prison (possibly in Poland, from the sound of it) in 2002. Interesting how he talks about it:
    Somewhat like those who hate some of the TSA's actions done on travelers, yet continue to work for them. It's the consternation of a Rudolf Hoess, Auschwitz commandant, who despite it continues to run the death camp.

    yet, when Carle was basically asked whether this made him a war criminal, he says
    The victim was then held for 8 years after Carle and others asserted that he wasn't the guy they were looking for. Then Carle comes up with this topper:
    ya think?

    Whatever it is separating us from wicked regimes like the Soviet Union, and I believe there is a separation, whatever it is, it ain't much. Not when you look at what George Tenet approved in 2003:
  3. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    However, things did not work out well for Rudy:


    If only some of our current despots could get this same message!

    Found a fascinating blog of historical photos: http://historyimages.blogspot.com/2011/12/nuremberg-trials-removing-traces-of.html
  4. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    The rationalizations are disgusting. "Yes, I knew it was wrong, but I did it anyway." "Well, after all, though it may have been immoral, it was legal." Etc.
  5. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    And the U.S. prosecuted -- and executed -- Japanese officials after WWII for waterboarding. It was considered a war crime.

    But, as ever, American Exceptionalism gives our goons the "right" to do whatever they want. It's only Other Goons who are criminals.

    There are so many hideous torture methods that human beings come up with. And they don't have to be exotic. I'll never forget something a former Soviet apparatchik wrote about the methods the KGB used. You just make a prisoner stand, he said. Stand. Without moving. For hours at a time. All day. The legs swell to grotesque proportions. Horribly painful. "It's a terrible torture," he said.

    For all the (expletive deleted) chicken hawks who are happy to send other people's children off to die, for all the sniveling cowards and morons who call torture "enhanced interrogation" or "harsh interrogation" -- well, I wish Dante were still around so he could rewrite Inferno and add another circle of (expletive deleted).
  6. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    the average US citizen has no idea of how corrupt the federal government has become. The squelching of the 1995 killing of Kenneth Trentadue during "interrogation", who was mistaken for another man wanted in the OKC bombing, is just one of many instances. Btw, that "other" man was named Guthrie, and he was killed also in prison, along with an inmate who had witnessed part of the Trentadue beatings.
  7. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Torture (and murder) is routine in U.S. prisons. Americans want to pretend otherwise.
  8. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    From that link:
  9. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

  10. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    As much as don't mind pinning anything on Eric Holder (I would recommend landscaping spikes instead of pins), lacking any evidence, this tale is little more than just another conspiracy theory. Like the Kennedy assassination, the OKC bombing will always be a fertile ground for the Jim Garrisons of the world.

    Meanwhile there are plenty of solid examples on which to build a case for reforming law enforcement and prisons. By picking better examples, you'll be more likely to prevail in the end.
  11. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    That is incorrect.

    This tale basically started as a pissing match between Paul Begala & John McCain.

    McCain's original statement -- that some of those on trial where charged with waterboarding -- was correct. Paul Begala took McCain's statement and enhanced it, and now it seems that half the left-wing email list is repeating Begala's enhancement.

    Yes, some of the Japanese war criminals were charged with waterboarding. Waterboarding was one of their nicer pasttimes. It's disingenuous to claim they were executed for waterboarding. They were executed for crimes on the scale of the infamous Rape of Nanking and the construction of the Burma Road, among other things.

    Courtesy National Review, these are the only seven war criminals that were executed as a result of Tokyo war crimes trials known officially as the "International Military Tribunal for the Far East":

    During Hirota’s second tenure as foreign minister, late in 1937, Japanese forces marched into Nanking. Thousands of innocent civilians were buried alive, used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into the Yangtze River. Rampant rapes (and gang rapes) of women ranging from age seven to over seventy were reported. The international community estimated that within the six weeks of the Massacre, 20,000 women were raped, many of them subsequently murdered or mutilated; and over 300,000 people were killed, often with the most inhumane brutality.​
    While Hirota was not in charge of the army units that invaded Nanjing, he was well informed about the massacre. The international community had filed many protests to the Japanese Embassy. Bates, an American professor of history at the University of Nanking during the Japanese occupation, provided evidence that the protests were forwarded to Tokyo and were discussed in great detail between Japanese officials and the U.S. ambassador in Tokyo.​

    Itagaki was moreover responsible for the supply of food and medical care to prisoners of war and civilian internees, in particular on various Indonesian islands during the last months of the war. It has been established that, over that period, thousands of people died due to lack of food or adequate care, while the camp guards suffered no undue hardship.​

    Kenji Dohihara voted in favour of the attack on Pearl Harbour … He commanded the Army of the 7th Region, which includes parts of Malaysia and the islands of Sumatra, Java and Borneo in Indonesia. In this capacity, he was responsible for supplying food and medicines to not only the Japanese troops, but also to prisoners of war.​

    It is alleged that in carrying out his functions, Kimura allegedly violated the laws and customs of war in approving the use of prisoners of war for hazardous work, from which they are usually prohibited. They were forced to work in very dangerous conditions and several thousands died. Heitaro Kimura allegedly gave the order and approved the use of prisoners of war for the construction of the railway between Burma and the Kingdom of Siam (now Thailand). In addition, he did not take the necessary disciplinary measures to prevent or to punish the commission of atrocities by his troops.​

    His troops took Nanking on 13 December 1937. The Chinese army had evacuated the city just before it was taken. The ensuing occupation was therefore that of a defenceless city. The Japanese troops nevertheless carried out unspeakable atrocities: massacre, rape, pillaging and destruction were routinely committed. During a six to seven week period, more than 100’000 civilians were killed and thousands of women raped. Against this backdrop, Matsui marched triumphantly into Nanking on 17 December 1937 and remained there for several days.​

    Moreover, as an officer serving under General Matsui between November 1937 and July 1938, he was charged with war crimes for his participation in the atrocities committed at Nanking.​

    There are precedents for trying and imprisoning soldiers for waterboarding. This article provides three examples of people (including a Japanese soldier) who were tried and/or imprisoned for waterboarding.

    If you do your research, you can still make a strong case that there is ample precedent that waterboarding is illegal, and that we have taken strong measures against waterboarders in the past; therefore our modern day waterboarders should receive similar justice. However, claiming that people have been executed for waterboarding won't hold up & won't make your case.

    This could actually be a damning indictment of some in the Bush administration if someone would take the time to do the research and get the facts right.
  12. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    And speaking the Rape of Nanking, if you haven't read it, Iris Chang's Rape of Nanking is a must read. She was a great writer, I just couldn't put the book down despite how depressing it was.

    She must also have found her subject matter depressing -- sadly, she committed suicide a few years after it was published.
  13. nachtnebel

    nachtnebel Original Member

    Seems like a pretty good example to me. Several federal judges have ruled in favor of the plaintiffs in the Trentadue case, and one of these rendered a $1 million dollar verdict. I'm not aware that federal judges are inclined to largesse toward jailbirds. So, there is obviously substantial evidence of wrongdoing and coverup in that case, and the coroner ruled it a murder initially, and gradually lessened that verdict over time and severe arm twisting.

    There is valid reason to ask why the Feds went to such an extent to fight this and suppress evidence in this case, IMHO. And those reasons have nothing at all to do with Jim Garrison, thank you very much.
  14. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Sorry, I don't know anything about a pissing match between Paul Begala and John McCain. All I know is that the U.S. considered waterboarding to be a war crime and stated so explicitly during and after WWII.
  15. Lisa Simeone

    Lisa Simeone Original Member

    Yes, I've read it. And yes, sad ending for Iris Chang.
  16. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    But it's not the big political conspiracy (OKC) bombing that you paint it to be. When you spin a big tale on the front end, your credibility goes south.
  17. Mike

    Mike Founding Member Coach

    The problem is when you start out with misstatements and unthruths.

    The less dramatic, unembellished (and often not WWII related) exampled will make your case.

    Claiming that the war criminals at the Tokyo tribune were executed for waterboarding utltimately will be dismissed as the hyperbole that it is.

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